# Dredging up ancient history:Mueller **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 29, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798 "2022-07-29T20:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/21 "2022-07-30T15:21:26Z")
I agree with @Aspenglow 's comments. Building rock solid criminal cases takes time and effort and a lot of preparation. The more complex the case, and the higher up the target, the more time and effort and preparation is needed. And the higher up the target is, the more work that is needed. One of the classic statements was from Deep Throat. The background was that Woodward and Bernstein had written an article that implicated Haldeman, but they had gotten some facts wrong, allowing Haldeman to issue a denial that other media picked up. Shortly after, Woodward had a meeting in the parking garage with Deep Throat, who reamed him out: > [@](#): > > Deep Throat stamped his foot. "A conspiracy like this . . . a conspiracy investigation . . . the rope has to tighten slowly around everyone’s neck. You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and the Liddys. They feel hopelessly finished — they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do the same thing at the next level. If you shoot too high and miss, then everybody feels more secure. Lawyers works this way. I’m sure smart reporters must, too. You’ve put the investigation back months. It puts everyone on the defensive — editors, FBI agents, everybody has to go into a crouch after this. > > Woodward swallowed hard. He deserved the lecture. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/22 "2022-07-30T15:25:24Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Stopping an attempt to overthrow of a government cannot be done at leisure and with endless deliberation. The first stop happened on January 6, when the Capitol Police did their job, against all odds, and then when Pelosi and Pence re-convened Congress that night to record the results. Prosecutions take longer. They’re equally important, but they don’t happen in real time. > [@Turki-lurki](#): > > DoJ has failed to manage this at a critical time. Results matter. Right, results do matter. A series of acquittals from poorly prepared cases would have a major impact. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/23 "2022-07-30T15:44:52Z")
At every moment within my lifetime, at least, Congress has wanted to have some information out of the Executive branch and the Executive branch has been stonewalling and obfuscating to avoid answering. If the DOJ was able to prosecute members of the Executive branch for obstruction of justice, and the Senate was sufficiently strict about who they would approve for AG, Congress would effectively become able to micromanage the White House through targeted lawmaking. In general, the Executive branch is very selective about the **type** of crime that it will prosecute against itself - not just the facts of the case. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/24 "2022-07-30T17:01:10Z")
Wait! I thought that it has been proven that Trump’s collusions with the Russians was a [fabrication of the Clinton election team](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-20/clinton-approved-trump-russia-leak-her-campaign-manager-says). But a [bipartisan Senate investigation](https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/903616315/senate-releases-final-report-on-russias-interference-in-2016-election) effectively confirmed the Mueller Report. But this says Mueller did not find [that Trump did anything wrong](https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/). Not defending Trump but I guess I’m confused as to what crimes he committed regarding Russia and the election; or at least what crimes the DOJ could now prove in 2022. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/25 "2022-07-30T17:13:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Wait! I thought that it has been proven that Trump’s collusions with the Russians was a [fabrication of the Clinton election team](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-20/clinton-approved-trump-russia-leak-her-campaign-manager-says). Did you really think that? Because the article you linked to doesn’t even say that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/26 "2022-07-30T17:56:14Z")
My fault for trying to be brief. The Trump servers \<=\> Russian bank was shown to be a Clinton campaign lie with Hillary’s OK. Was that part of the Mueller Report? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/27 "2022-07-30T18:02:13Z")
The report only included parts that they had confirmed. They didn’t include information about things that they ruled out. The principal thing that they noted, for possible criminal prosecution, was destruction of evidence, witness tampering, perjury, and things of that nature. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/28 "2022-07-30T18:12:15Z")
OK, thanks for that. For some reason I thought the OMG Trump servers! Russian banks! That’s proof he’s colluding! was a fundamental part of the Mueller report. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/29 "2022-07-30T18:14:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > My fault for trying to be brief. The Trump servers \<=\> Russian bank was shown to be a Clinton campaign lie with Hillary’s OK. That’s not what the article you linked to says and your version is completely false. There was a real data anomaly between Alfa bank servers and a Trump Organization server that has not been explained to this day. It was discovered by independent researchers not affiliated with the Clinton campaign. This information was brought to the FBI who dismissed it without really looking into it or explaining anything. The information was also leaked to the media who reported on the story. After all that the story fell into the hands of the Clinton campaign who then made another push for the story to be reported on in the media. After this was done, Robby Mook told Clinton about it and she said something to the effect that they made the right move. Very much not a Clinton campaign lie. Very much not done with Hillary’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/30 "2022-07-30T18:26:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > OK, thanks for that. For some reason I thought the OMG Trump servers! Russian banks! That’s proof he’s colluding! was a fundamental part of the Mueller report. The Alfa bank Trump server connection is not mentioned in the Mueller report at all. Where are you getting your information that led you to having every fact about the Alfa Bank story wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/31 "2022-07-30T18:45:42Z")
People that are typically well-researched and following the stories as they occurred and could be counted on as reliable. My social group tends to be fairly academic although there are a couple that I have to think, “I bet Snopes disagrees with you.” I didn’t research a lot of the collusion allegations myself at the time but when you have friends that are well-informed, just talk to them right? I’m betting now if I backtrack my information on the whole collusion bit a lot will be information from friends on facebook, this pro-Trump reporter, that pro-Hillary newspaper, Fox vs. CNN. You get the idea. This really seems to be the one time where counting on people to be analytical and impartial as to the facts failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/32 "2022-07-30T19:28:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > For some reason I thought the OMG Trump servers! Russian banks! That’s proof he’s colluding! was a fundamental part of the Mueller report. The easy way to know what’s in the Mueller Report is to read the Mueller Report. It’s completely public. Probably the closest thing to confirmed is that Roger Stone was in contact with WikiLeaks and was coordinating the release of materials with them, and that Trump was aware of this. You effectively have to assume that Trump and everyone that he knows was stupid enough to believe that WikiLeaks is not being run by Russia, to forgive them for that. But, even if we ignore the Russia topic and just think in terms of what job Trump was running for then this episode should immediately have rendered him unfit for office. If you’re running to be the head of national security and you’re creating a debt to a group whose whole existence is set up to try and collect and publicize top secret materials; that’s like running for fire chief while working with an arsonist to burn down your opponent’s house. Russian involvement is sort of irrelevant to the equation. Just saying, “I love WikiLeaks” or “You’d have to be stupid to not accept information from a foreign intelligence service, against your political opponent”, are both blunt and unambiguous admissions of being unfit for office. Manafort was sending information to Russian sources, had foreign debts, like 15 cell phones, and three passports from different countries. The guy genuinely seems to have been an agent of someone or at least deeply compromised and living a life of crime. But, on all of this, there’s no particular indication that Trump was aware of this and it’s not clear what Manafort’s angle was. Where Trump becomes guilty on this one is that he continued to work with and chat with Manafort even after his own appointees all agreed that the guy was stinkier than a 3 month dead skunk’s anal gland. He pardoned the guy and, from some moves that Manafort made, it seems like that may have been a trade for silence. In similar respect, Mueller showed that Flynn was compromised - mostly by Turkey, but possibly others - and Trump’s appointees, Rosenatein and Barr, both confirmed that the Intel was damning. And, again, Trump continued to hang out with Flynn - including plotting the false electors scheme, several years later - and pardoning him of all crimes. While Mueller did not prosecute Steve Bannon, he does note the destruction of evidence by Bannon and George Nader relating to a meeting with Alfa Bank and the UAE. Again, Trump continued to work with Bannon and, later, pardoned him for fraud against MAGA voters - as prosecuted by his own appointees. On the side of Russia, we have people in Trump’s territory sending information to Russia and different people getting stuff out of Russia, but it’s not clear if those are related. The bigger concern is that there was a lot of evidence destroyed, witness tampering, and provable lies between the whole Trump group, when questions about Russia were asked. That’s not conclusive, but it _should be_ deeply concerning to anyone who is, again, of the sort to think that it would be dumb to hire a fire chief who sure seems to hang out with a lot of people that like to commit arson. But, throwing away Russia and assuming that everyone’s innocent in that angle - maybe Russia just tricked Trump’s people into doing stupid things - you still have to be concerned that Trump’s friends are criminals, all easily compromised, and that he has no excuse to not know this given that **it’s his own people** that proved it to him. If he continued to hang out with those folks then you have to assume that he’s equally criminal or that he’s just an idiot of the first degree. Personally, I don’t see how you argue the first when you look at events like how [Trump introduced Manafort to Stephen Calk](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2019/01/25/stephen-calk/). How would Manafort know that he could safely commit back fraud with Calk so quickly, unless he knew the sort of people that Trump hangs out with? The media and Democrats always seem to be strangely myopic and miss the bigger issues. How do we know that Trump knew he lost the election? Well, did he ever do anything to shut down the Deep State, after they spied on Carter Page? Or did he approve the continuation of the FBI’s post-9/11 wiretap abilities and raise their budget? Has he ever admitted the he doesn’t believe in the Deep State theory? Did he ever say that he thought the Democrats would steal the election, prior to election day? Well then, did he implement any of the measures towards securing elections that were proposed during his time in office? If you have questions about what a person believes, look at what they do. That’s how you know what they believe. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/33 "2022-07-30T20:08:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The easy way to know what’s in the Mueller Report is to read the Mueller Report. It’s completely public. Except we _still_ don’t know who Individual One was! /s ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/34 "2022-07-30T20:32:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Right, results do matter. A series of acquittals from poorly prepared cases would have a major impact. trump loves being acquitted. He would trumpet that as proof it was a political witch-hunt and he is innocent. That would be giving him a huge win. > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > After all that the story fell into the hands of the Clinton campaign who then made another push for the story to be reported on in the media. After this was done, Robby Mook told Clinton about it and she said something to the effect that they made the right move. > > Very much not a Clinton campaign lie. > Very much not done with Hillary’s OK. The mistake was going with it before it was verified. But the initial intel _seemed_ good. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/35 "2022-07-30T20:53:58Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > That’s just how investigations work. No leverage to get the upper guys till you get the lower guys to testify against them. The Jan. 6 committee has shown us you don’t have to start at the bottom. Garland ignored Meuller’s report. Looks more like incompetence than careful case building. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/36 "2022-07-30T20:53:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > trump loves being acquitted. He would trumpet that as proof it was a political witch-hunt and he is innocent. That would be giving him a huge win. And our justice system is set up to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant. This doesn’t always work out, and plenty of innocent people have been convicted of crimes they didn’t commit, but they don’t have millions of dollars to spend on lawyers. If every i is not dotted and every t crossed, they’ll find a way to get him acquitted, and an acquittal will be proclaimed as total exenteration of all accusations. They really cannot prosecute if there is _any_ doubt of a conviction. On principle, _maybe_ they should anyway, but I don’t think it would do good overall. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/37 "2022-07-30T20:59:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > …and an acquittal will be proclaimed as total **exenteration** of all accusations. What does that word mean? (the bolded one) Really asking (I Googled it but feel I may be missing something). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/38 "2022-07-30T21:06:29Z")
it simply means that I didn’t proofread well enough. (or at all, really) exoneration. But now I want to come up with a definition for **exenteration** , as that looks like a fun word. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/39 "2022-07-30T21:30:02Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Garland ignored Meuller’s report. Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798/40 "2022-07-30T22:19:09Z")
This is coming back to my original question (thankfully). I have not seen any sign in the news that the Mueller report is being followed up at all. I read the NYT and WAPO pretty consistently, but may have missed it. Leaving aside the speed of the DoJ effort has anyone seen mention of follow-up on Mueller? Mr Turbo seems quite certain- is there a cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dredging-up-ancient-history-mueller/968798.md?page=3)