# Dress codes at upscale restaurants **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807 "2010-04-21T00:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/61 "2010-04-21T20:05:37Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Especially because I’ve noticed that African-Americans are less likely to dress like slobs than white folks. All the racists I’ve known have dressed like shit. “Take the damn sheet off and put on a blazer, asshole”, I always say. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/62 "2010-04-21T20:14:53Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I assume that your intention here is to insinuate that people who would prefer that you make yourself presentable for the occasion must also be racist? Cute. No, I’m not implying that they _must also_ be racist, but I assert that they arise from similar urges to control people around you. I’m insinuating that the urge to control the composition of the people around you is rooted in the same kind of impulse, whether it is expressed as matter of attire or race or other personal characteristic. I’m implying that being put out by what other people look like – whether it’s because of their attire or some other visual characteristic, like race – is not the responsibility of the person you’re looking at. I’m also implying that the one is just as outdated as the other and the rest of society should feel exactly as obliged to humor, entertain, or indulge the preference to see people only dressed a certain way in X location as we would feel obliged to humor, entertain, or indulge the preference to see people of a specific race in X location. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/63 "2010-04-21T20:15:05Z")
I had a professor tell me 25 years ago that the move to casual clothes for work started in the west and moved east. I guess the same is true for dress when going out to eat. I remember back then seeing 2 pictures in a computer magazine - an IBM guy with a full suit and tie and a guy from Sun in a jean jacket so that fits what I heard. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/64 "2010-04-21T20:18:14Z")
Lord, the whole “It’s unreasonable of society to infringe on my right to be a slob.” thing is so. fucking. tiresome. Be a slob, just be prepared to be judged on it by people more socially skilled than you. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/65 "2010-04-21T20:21:48Z")
I don’t think everything below a jacket and tie is being a slob but others may not agree. I don’t go to fancy places often but when I go I don’t see jeans and t-shirts there , but maybe I don’t go often enough to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/66 "2010-04-21T20:24:48Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Lord, the whole “It’s unreasonable of society to infringe on my right to be a slob.” thing is so. fucking. tiresome. > > Be a slob, just be prepared to be judged on it by people more socially skilled than you. Oh, I am prepared for such. The difference is that I’m not letting your judgment ruin my day. But you are letting my choice of attire ruin yours. And, as has been pointed out in this thread, every year, the proportion of people like me is growing and the proportion of people like you is shrinking. So you lose, and it’s all on you. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/67 "2010-04-21T20:26:46Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I believe country clubs still have a dress code but to join them you have to be pretty well off. All the local “social clubs” require suits and ties. I’ve only been a few times as a guest, though. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/68 "2010-04-21T20:29:47Z")
You know, I don’t think everything other than a jacket and tie is sloppy either. And frankly, as mentioned upthread, “jeans and sneakers” can mean everything from “very fashionable” to “people of Walmart”, so I’d be the last person to say you should never wear jeans. Jeans are acceptable very nearly everywhere, if they’re the RIGHT jeans (which doesn’t mean expensive, btw, it means dark and well cut). But I have zero patience with people who insist that no one should judge them for what they’re wearing. You \*chose \*those clothes. They’re a perfectly valid thing to judge you on. ETA - you’re not ruining my day honey. I’m laughing at you and moving on. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/69 "2010-04-21T20:36:34Z")
If I’m going to a fancy restaurant, I’d probably dress up, _a little._ If I’m out doing something in town with a t-shirt, shorts and sandals and we decide we want to eat, I’ll gladly go to that same fancy restaurant dressed just like that. Never do I get turned down. Not even if I’m coming back from the beach and my clothes have sand all over them. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/70 "2010-04-21T20:44:02Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, I’m not implying that they _must also_ be racist, but I assert that they arise from similar urges to control people around you. I’m insinuating that the urge to control the composition of the people around you is rooted in the same kind of impulse, whether it is expressed as matter of attire or race or other personal characteristic. I’m implying that being put out by what other people look like – whether it’s because of their attire or some other visual characteristic, like race – is not the responsibility of the person you’re looking at. I’m also implying that the one is just as outdated as the other and the rest of society should feel exactly as obliged to humor, entertain, or indulge the preference to see people only dressed a certain way in X location as we would feel obliged to humor, entertain, or indulge the preference to see people of a specific race in X location. But race and attire have a huge difference. You can’t choose or change your race. You must choose your attire, and you can change it as often as you please. Claiming they’re similar “personal characteristics” is laughable. If you’re going to the wedding of a friend, knowing it was at a church with a fancy reception afterwards, do you at least put on your best clothes, or do you just say “I’m going to wear whatever crap I’d have worn today if I wasn’t going to a wedding, and too bad for anyone else if they think I’m inconsiderate for doing so” ? ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/71 "2010-04-21T20:44:22Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Oh, I am prepared for such. The difference is that I’m not letting your judgment ruin my day. But you are letting my choice of attire ruin yours. And, as has been pointed out in this thread, every year, the proportion of people like me is growing and the proportion of people like you is shrinking. So you lose, and it’s all on you. See, you’re missing the point. It doesn’t ruin my day. I can form an opinion of you as clueless and disrespectful while still enjoying myself. ETA: basically what Diana said. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/72 "2010-04-21T20:50:37Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I have zero patience with people who insist that no one should judge them for what they’re wearing. You \*chose \*those clothes. They’re a perfectly valid thing to judge you on. True, but I think that people can also be judged on whether they care about what other people are wearing. People can also similarly be judged on whether or not they choose to flout social conventions and/or the polite requests of others. Personally, I don’t care what other people wear, so long as the choice of clothing doesn’t violate other social conventions (vulgar t-shirts and overly revealing clothing would). I also think it’s kind of lame to care about what other people are wearing because, functionally, there’s no real difference. So, when I hear that people do. . .I kind of view it as being pretty shallow and controlling. Old-fashioned, and not in a good way. ETA: I do, however, think that deliberately ignoring a polite request to dress to a certain style is pretty classless. If I don’t feel like dressing up, I don’t go to a restaurant that asks me to dress up. I also think that things like business casual are idiotic, but that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/73 "2010-04-21T20:51:09Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You know, I don’t think everything other than a jacket and tie is sloppy either. And frankly, as mentioned upthread, “jeans and sneakers” can mean everything from “very fashionable” to “people of Walmart”, so I’d be the last person to say you should never wear jeans. Jeans are acceptable very nearly everywhere, if they’re the RIGHT jeans (which doesn’t mean expensive, btw, it means dark and well cut). > > But I have zero patience with people who insist that no one should judge them for what they’re wearing. You \*chose \*those clothes. They’re a perfectly valid thing to judge you on. > > ETA - you’re not ruining my day honey. I’m laughing at you and moving on. Would you laugh at them if they were dressed up but had other things you don’t like? Such as hairstyle, makeup, scruffy beard, odd color clothes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/74 "2010-04-21T20:52:59Z")
Social conventions is the topic of discussion. If we’re at a funeral, I’d rather you wear the world’s ugliest (dark) suit than the world’s nicest jeans. I may think you have terrible taste in clothes, but I won’t think you’re a reprobate or a social retard. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/75 "2010-04-21T20:53:48Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But race and attire have a huge difference. You can’t choose your race. You must choose your attire. Claiming they’re similar “personal characteristics” is laughable. To me it’s laughable to rate your personal experience on the attire of the people around you. Actually, to me it’s more than that, it’s a kind of authoritarian impulse to to control others. > [@](#): > > If you’re going to the wedding of a friend, knowing it was at a church with a fancy reception afterwards, do you at least put on your best clothes, or do you just say “I’m going to wear whatever crap I’d have worn today if I wasn’t going to a wedding, and too bad for anyone else if they think I’m inconsiderate for doing so” ? I choose the outfit that satisfies me. I’ve worn all manner of clothing to weddings, from tuxedo to jeans. And never did I care to judge the people around me based on what they’ve worn. I don’t consider choice of clothing to be a matter of consideration. We’re all just stopping by on the way to our graves, so just wear what makes you happy. In fact, yes, my attitude regarding weddings is that this is a celebration. They should be happy merely for the fact that I choose to join them, contribute my well wishes, and celebrate with them. If their concern is about what I’m wearing, then so far as I’m concerned they’re welcome to reject my well-wishes and harbor all that ill-feeling about my attire and let it eat away at their soul and let it make them miserable. The choice is theirs. ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/76 "2010-04-21T20:53:55Z")
I’m not going to risk staining my good clothes, so I wear my worst that I can get away with. I swear I’m not a sloppy eater, I just have bad coordination and luck. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/77 "2010-04-21T20:57:53Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > In fact, yes, my attitude regarding weddings is that this is a celebration. They should be happy merely for the fact that I choose to join them, contribute my well wishes, and celebrate with them. If their concern is about what I’m wearing, then so far as I’m concerned they’re welcome to reject my well-wishes and harbor all that ill-feeling about my attire and let it eat away at their soul and let it make them miserable. The choice is theirs. It’s a celebration for _them_, and presumably the invitation gave some hint of expected attire I just want to be clear… you expect other people to respect your disregard for their feelings, or just social niceties in general, or THEY’RE being shallow and self-centered? Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/78 "2010-04-21T21:10:02Z")
What really burns my biscuits is how nobody dresses for the Philharmonic anymore. I think it’s disrespectful to the performers to show up in your ratty cutoffs. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/79 "2010-04-21T21:10:32Z")
It’s all going away. We don’t wear powdered wigs and tights to attend upon the sovereign. We don’t wear morning coats and tophats to the theater. We don’t wear dinner jackets and black ties to dine at home. We don’t wear ties and jackets on an airplane. At occasions like the Oscars, more and more men dispense with ties altogether. This thread was started to complain about people not wearing ties and jackets at expensive restaurants. The trend is clear. As time goes on, people are becoming less and less likely to bother conforming to ideas about formality in dress and reciprocally, people are becoming less and less likely to judge others based on their choice of attire. Those that continue to do so find themselves in an ever-shrinking minority. And this goes hand-in-hand with the historical erosion of class-based differences, which is what dress codes are all about in the first place. I believe that it is a reasonable expectation that in my lifetime someone will take the presidential oath of office in shorts and sandals. On this issue, the future is bright from my point of view. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807/80 "2010-04-21T21:10:56Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Wow. Believe it or not, I’m going there tomorrow for dinner. > > I shall report back. > > MMM Small world, eh? Enjoy! It’s been about ten years, but the escargot was perfectly cooked (and in puff pastry, tough combination.) and do check out the bathrooms - they were pathetic. you had to walk all the way up to the bar, and then they looked like ones at my high school! ETA: They don’t offer the escargot any more, but [The prawns sound amazing](http://www.thewhitney.com/pdfs/menu_dinner.pdf) ::hungry:: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dress-codes-at-upscale-restaurants/536807.md?page=5)