# Drinking problem?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 24, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421 "2013-07-24T21:42:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/121 "2013-07-29T01:23:54Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> This from chapter 5 of the Big Book:
> So yeah, basically if it doesn’t work for you, you’re flawed.
> Not the most positive message, and not one I personally subscribe to.
You are beginning to sound like you have a chip on your shoulder where you and AA are concerned.
---
### Author:  [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/122 "2013-07-29T01:29:40Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> This from chapter 5 of the Big Book:
> So yeah, basically if it doesn’t work for you, you’re flawed.
> Not the most positive message, and not one I personally subscribe to.
A person is not flawed as long as they’re honest. Once a drunk cuts through their own lies and stops blaming everyone but themselves for their addiction, they might recover, in AA or somewhere else.
Remember you need to work their program to succeed. Sort of like Jenny Craig. Follow their program and you’ll lose weight. Fight the program and you’ll probably stay fat.
AA does not recruit. You are not required to attend. They have a program. They tell you all about it right up front from the first meeting. If it doesn’t look like it’s the kind of program that appeals to you. Get up and go!
Try Malibu Passages. I think they promise a cure. But I bet you have to do it their way.
---
### Author:  [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/123 "2013-07-29T01:31:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You are beginning to sound like you have a chip on your shoulder where you and AA are concerned.
Because respectfully presenting cons to a popular recovery method must mean that I have a chip on my shoulder.
Right.
---
### Author:  [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/124 "2013-07-29T01:37:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Remember you need to work their program to succeed. Sort of like Jenny Craig. Follow their program and you’ll lose weight. Fight the program and you’ll probably stay fat.
That is correct. But Jenny Craig hasn’t worked for many, and they have gone on to find something that does. That’s what it’s all about and that’s why I always try to present the message of hope to an addicted individual. If they do not want to use AA because of the spiritual component, the f2f, or any other reason, then they should know that that’s fine and there are alternatives and they are not doomed, which people in AA will tell you.
I don’t know if your response was directed to me or to the OP, but I am self recovered. I haven’t used alcohol or any substance in close to ten years.
---
### Author:  [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/125 "2013-07-29T01:46:36Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> Because respectfully presenting cons to a popular recovery method must mean that I have a chip on my shoulder.
>
> Right.
yeah you right..I am sure its just me
---
### Author:  [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/126 "2013-07-29T02:01:58Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> That is correct. But Jenny Craig hasn’t worked for many, and they have gone on to find something that does. That’s what it’s all about and that’s why I always try to present the message of hope to an addicted individual. If they do not want to use AA because of the spiritual component, the f2f, or any other reason, then they should know that that’s fine and there are alternatives and they are not doomed, which people in AA will tell you.
>
> I don’t know if your response was directed to me or to the OP, but I am self recovered. I haven’t used alcohol or any substance in close to ten years.
That’s fantastic! I’ve known many people who have self recovered. A few folks in my family as a matter a fact.
Why so angry? I will write this until my fingers bleed. No one can force a person to AA or any other program. There is no right or wrong program. Or right way to get and stay clean and sober.
Why not let people find their own way. Hopefully they will enjoy the recovery that you are experiencing.
Whatever method(s) they choose to attempt to recover from one of the most devastating conditions that inflicts human beings. Let’s hope they all find it.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/127 "2013-07-29T02:12:12Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> So yeah, basically if it doesn’t work for you, you’re flawed.
> Not the most positive message, and not one I personally subscribe to.
Hah! My favorite is in Step Two in _12 and 12_:
> [@](#):
>
> Lets look first at the case of the one who says he won’t believe - the belligerent one. **He is in a state of mind which can only be described as savage.** His whole philosophy of life, in which he so gloried, is threatened. It’s bad enough, he thinks, to admit alcohol has him down for keeps. But now still smarting from that admission, he is faced with something really impossible. How does he cherish the thought that man, risen so majestically from a single cell in the primordial ooze, is the spearhead of evolution and therefore the only God that his universe knows! Must he renounce all this to save himself?
Bringing someone over to your side always starts with calling him a savage.
> [@](#):
>
> “…The hoop you have to jump through is a lot wider than you think. At least I’ve found it so. So did a friend of mine who was a one time vice-president of the **American Atheist Society** , but he got through with room to spare.”
Um, there was no “American Atheist Society” when this book was written in 1951, but as you learn more about the early years of AA you quickly conclude that Bill W was a lying sack of shit, a horrible human being, and a conman willing to say anything to get you on board and willing to ignore his pecker-dildoes–he left 10% of his estate to his mistress, for instance. In his fucking will, in front of his wife, God, and the State of New York. Getting the dirt on Bill Wilson is easy and fun because it is all so well documented.
That’s why I tell people they may want to ignore the program, use the people for cheap group therapy, and cut out when they figure they don’t need it anymore.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/128 "2013-07-29T02:21:21Z")
> [@kevja](#):
>
> AA does not recruit. You are not required to attend. They have a program. They tell you all about it right up front from the first meeting. If it doesn’t look like it’s the kind of program that appeals to you. Get up and go!
And you can kiss off getting a sympathetic judge in your DUI hearing! Lots of people are required to attend. I know because I have signed the forms they bring so they can show the judge, but not until the meeting is over because they are drunks who will sneak to the bar next door as soon as you blink. I’m not sure the program will help them. In most cases I’m resigned to it not helping them, or them helping themselves. But I’m damned if I’m going to help them weasel out of acting a tiny bit responsible.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/129 "2013-07-29T02:30:50Z")
> [@stoplight](#):
>
> You are beginning to sound like you have a chip on your shoulder where you and AA are concerned.
A lot of people, once they get both eyes pointed in the same direction, get that chip because Bill goes out of his way, with his pseudoscience, poorly-understood Jungianism, crackpot theology, and all-around cussedness, to piss them off.
---
### Author:  [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/130 "2013-07-29T02:45:50Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> A lot of people, once they get both eyes pointed in the same direction, get that chip because Bill goes out of his way, with his pseudoscience, poorly-understood Jungianism, crackpot theology, and all-around cussedness, to piss them off.
meh,not buying it. I think what happens is someone like you or someone like **Girlundone** , but not her cuz she went a different route, realizes that AA is just a piece of the bigger puzzle, some need more pieces, some need only a few and some need none. Those who are invested in the many pieces feel threatened by those who need only a few. It really has nothing to do with AA and so much more to do with group think and culture. Realize it has nothing to do with you, and do as the book suggest, take what you want and leave the rest. But some take it personally and bang, instant chip and more baggage to carry and its all AA’s fault. One can spend time investigating Bill W or invest time in sobriety, just depends what wheel they choose to make go round and round.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/131 "2013-07-29T03:32:15Z")
Well, we do come to it as drunks. We are all ornery in our own ways, and some are ornerier than others. Bill didn’t like independent thinking and neither do many of his followers. I took what I needed and left because I no longer felt totally welcome, though mostly because I was sick of talking about alcohol. Some people are active members for decades, telling the same damned stories. OTOH, I can’t even remember what the shit tastes like or how it made me feel. It’s just a vague part of my past, like fourth grade, but I know it would not necessarily be positive if I dredged up those memories.
---
### Author:  [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/132 "2013-07-29T04:23:20Z")
Well I have neither a chip on my shoulder, nor am I angry. When I am angry, I generally say something like "this pisses me off, or “I’m really fucking mad”. I simply pointed out some things that can be very problematic for some people who are attempting to recover from an addiction. If an approach is not acceptable to an individual, for whatever personal reasons, then they should be presented with options, not told they are in denial or flawed or not a real drunk or they will inevitably fail or any number of nonsensical things that aren’t based in fact to begin with.
AA is a fine option for many, but contrary to popular belief, there are a great many for whom it does not work. Historically, it has been the only option available. As dropzone pointed out, it was, and still is, the only option used when an individual is court appointed. I’m not talking to the people who attend AA and are happy with their chosen program. I’m not trying to tell people they should leave. That would be stupid. Im talking about more options…individuals need education and more options.
It is my opinion that the disease model, the concept of powerlessness, the surrender to a higher power, all create a condition of learned helplessness. I realize that not everyone shares my opinion, but I do see this as a big problem.
[QUOTE=stoplight]
Those who are invested in the many pieces feel threatened by those who need only a few.
[/QUOTE]
I would agree with this, and it’s that fear that drives members to quickly extinguish any thought that falls outside of the group think.
I have a distaste for fear based living. But if you want to have a tenuous grip on sobriety, living with only a daily reprieve, all the while constantly being hyper vigilant because “your disease is doing push ups in the parking lot”, then by all means be my guest. I prefer to live free, of alcohol and fear.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/133 "2013-07-29T04:50:17Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> If an approach is not acceptable to an individual, for whatever personal reasons, then they should be presented with options, not told they are in denial or flawed or not a real drunk or they will inevitably fail or any number of nonsensical things that aren’t based in fact to begin with.
People must bear in mind that Bill W and Dr Bob were making it up as they went along, and they had no idea what they were doing. It’s a pastiche of the Oxford Group’s evangelical Christianity, Jung’s Higher Power, and things they figured should work, all triggered by a hallucination while Bill was taking the Belladonna Cure.
> [@](#):
>
> It is my opinion that the disease model, the concept of powerlessness, the surrender to a higher power, all create a condition of **learned helplessness.**
Hey! That’s MY phrase!
> [@](#):
>
> “your disease is doing push ups in the parking lot”
They say that by you, too? They are SO predictable!
---
### Author:  [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/134 "2013-07-29T05:17:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> People must bear in mind that Bill W and Dr Bob were making it up as they went along, and they had no idea what they were doing. It’s a pastiche of the Oxford Group’s evangelical Christianity, Jung’s Higher Power, and things they figured should work, all triggered by a hallucination while Bill was taking the Belladonna Cure.
Yes, I agree, but you know what? The Oxford Group did not fuck around. There was no one day at a time crap. It was expected that you would be permanently abstinent. Also, the whole “God of Your understanding” was created as a way to soften it up a little and get people in. It was debated among the founders. The evolution of the program within a historical context is really interesting. Today, I don’t know of too many members that really know the history though. There has been a huge influence of treatment center thought that has trickled into AA. Things that are not part of the actual program as outlined in the Big Book. Even members accept some of it as AA, when in fact it’s not.
> [@](#):
>
> Hey! That’s MY phrase!
Well, great minds do think alike, but the concept of [learned helplessness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness) is a psychological theory.
> [@](#):
>
> They are SO predictable!
They are nothing if not predictable. That’s evidenced by some of the responses on this thread.
---
### Author:  [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/135 "2013-07-29T05:18:49Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> Well I have neither a chip on my shoulder, nor am I angry. When I am angry, I generally say something like "this pisses me off, or “I’m really fucking mad”. I simply pointed out some things that can be very problematic for some people who are attempting to recover from an addiction. If an approach is not acceptable to an individual, for whatever personal reasons, then they should be presented with options, not told they are in denial or flawed or not a real drunk or they will inevitably fail or any number of nonsensical things that aren’t based in fact to begin with.
>
> AA is a fine option for many, but contrary to popular belief, there are a great many for whom it does not work. Historically, it has been the only option available. As dropzone pointed out, it was, and still is, the only option used when an individual is court appointed. I’m not talking to the people who attend AA and are happy with their chosen program. I’m not trying to tell people they should leave. That would be stupid. Im talking about more options…individuals need education and more options.
>
> It is my opinion that the disease model, the concept of powerlessness, the surrender to a higher power, all create a condition of learned helplessness. I realize that not everyone shares my opinion, but I do see this as a big problem.
>
> I would agree with this, and it’s that fear that drives members to quickly extinguish any thought that falls outside of the group think.
> \*\*
> I have a distaste for fear based living. But if you want to have a tenuous grip on sobriety, living with only a daily reprieve, all the while constantly being hyper vigilant because “your disease is doing push ups in the parking lot”, then by all means be my guest. I prefer to live free, of alcohol and fear\*\*.
whatever works, each their own way, even yours
---
### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/136 "2013-07-29T08:28:19Z")
> [@Girlundone](#):
>
> This! Why would anyone expend excessive mental energy and risk important things in life trying to moderate something that is in no way necessary, unless of course they have an addiction to it.
Because the negative reactions to “I don’t drink alcohol” are a bitch.
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/137 "2013-07-29T12:31:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Hah! but as you learn more about the early years of AA you quickly conclude that Bill W was a lying sack of shit, a horrible human being, and a conman willing to say anything to get you on board and willing to ignore his pecker-dildoes–he left 10% of his estate to his mistress, for instance. In his fucking will, in front of his wife, God, and the State of New York. Getting the dirt on Bill Wilson is easy and fun because it is all so well documented.
>
> .
Bill Wilson was certainly an interesting dude. The “spiritual revelation” that led to his starting AA occurred when he was whacked out of his head on drugs during his 4th attempt at an alternative treatment called the Belladonna Cure.
And he was a total womanizer both before and after his sobriety, to paraphrase one of his biographers " he would have screwed a hat rack if there was a woman’s hat on it". And he had the advantage of being the guy that wrote the rulebook, inserting his own little loophole into step 9 just to ensure that he could continue to pursue and hide his infidelities, he was especially big on hitting on female AA members.
And he dropped acid a whole bunch of times during the years he was “sober” and believed that LSD could be used as a therapeutic tool to bring spiritual awakenings to alcoholics. IIRC, this was the disagreement that led hime to resign for the board of AA.
And he also probably embezzled from the program in the early years.
And there are still a whole bunch of people that can attest that AA worked for them even though its founder was an incredibly flawed person.
I highly recommend the book \*Distilled Spirits \* by Don Lattin.
> **[Distilled Spirits: Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten...](https://www.amazon.com/Distilled-Spirits-Forgotten-Philosopher-Hopeless/dp/0520272323)**
>
> Distilled Spirits: Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher, and a Hopeless Drunk \[Lattin, Don\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Distilled Spirits: Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a...
Now, I am another one of those former alcoholics that quit without AA…close to 20 years ago. My problem with the program was the “last ditch” nature of it…at the time I quit I was not anywhere close to “hitting bottom” and I was put off by the “first you’ve got to hit bottom” aspect of the program…the reason I wanted to quit was to avoid any further damage.
However, AA helped my parents and several other family members turn their lives around. In contrast, I have other family members that have been attempting to “drink in moderation” for many years now and they basically still get drunk several times a week.
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/138 "2013-07-29T12:36:33Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> Because the negative reactions to “I don’t drink alcohol” are a bitch.
Really ???
I think possibly the absolute WORST reason to drink would be "people will react negatively if I don’t. If they do react negatively then it probably because they need an enabler and they want it to be you
---
### Author:  [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/139 "2013-07-29T12:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ann Hedonia]
I think possibly the absolute WORST reason to drink would be "people will react negatively if I don’t. If they do react negatively then it probably because they need an enabler and they want it to be you
[/QUOTE]
I agree, but I wouldn’t call it a reason, I would call it an excuse.
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421/140 "2013-07-30T00:01:51Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> Because the negative reactions to “I don’t drink alcohol” are a bitch.
Hmmm. I thought you and your friends were older than that. That’s more a reaction that people in their teens and twenties have. As you get older you get more, “I don’t, either,” reactions.
As for “hitting rock bottom,” I got closer than I preferred.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421.md?page=6)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drinking-problem/664421.md?page=8)