# Driver ordered to stand trial in electrocution deaths **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 26, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597 "2013-07-26T15:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/1 "2013-07-26T15:55:08Z")
Wow. [Tough crowd.](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-glendale-driver-electrocution-deaths-20130725,0,7655025.story) Basically, Jr. is driving recklessly through traffic, crashes, and takes down a power pole. Would-be rescuers are electrocuted when they try to help him, due to the downed power lines. I’m all for piling on charges to really crush a criminal who has hurt or victimized someone, but this may reach a little far. If he had hit someone, I say charge him, but you can’t foresee this type of thing. I know if you rob a bank, and a responding officer is hurt or killed, it’s on you, but their job is to come after you. I didn’t think civilians had that “protection”. It’s an interesting situation. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/2 "2013-07-26T16:25:42Z")
I frick’n hate reckless drivers! If you want to endanger your own life, that’s fine, but god damn! Don’t endanger mine too. I’m finding it tough to find any sympathy for the guy in the linked article. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/3 "2013-07-26T16:37:53Z")
This would be like a person illegally starting a fire, and then firemen died in an effort to rescue him. Maybe the law does address that situation. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/4 "2013-07-26T16:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > The defense attorney also argued that the people on the scene should have known the inherent dangers associated with downed power lines and standing water. The “they shoulda known better” defense! Dick move. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/5 "2013-07-26T17:04:43Z")
[From here](http://laist.com/2012/08/25/mourning_families_of_good_samaritan.php). > [@](#): > > Authorities have also alleged that Samsonian was street racing at the time of the crash. A friend of his was driving in a car nearby at the time of the crash. The intersection is on a [residential street](https://maps.google.co.jp/maps?q=Magnolia+Boulevard+and+Ben+Avenue+LA+USA&hl=en&ll=34.164902,-118.394223&spn=0.000421,0.000603&sll=24.64895,121.641367&sspn=0.665258,1.234589&t=h&brcurrent=3,0x0:0x0,1&hnear=Magnolia+Blvd+%26+Ben+Ave,+Los+Angeles,+California+91607,+United+States&z=21). He’s driving at a recklessly high rate of speed at night. > [@](#): > > According to Woloszyn, Samsonian’s car went speeding by his own SUV just moments before the accident in the middle yellow lane of traffic, trying to bypass other cars. Several other witnesses also said the car was speeding, with one estimating close to 70 mph. > > Two witnesses said that it was back in the right lane before it made the right hand turn and two said it made the turn from the middle yellow lane. > > Ashot Avanisian was following Samsonian that night in another car as the two headed for a local gym. He testified that Samsonian was driving in the dividing lane, and that they were speeding prior to the accident. > > “He got impatient because traffic was backing up at Magnolia and Colfax and so he went into the middle lane. At one point he got up to 50 mph and then went back into the lane he was supposed to be in,” he said. The speed limit on that stretch of Magnolia Boulevard is 35 mph. Note that the friend is admitting speeding up to 50 mph, so 70 mph would not be unlikely. It looks like the rescuers didn’t see the wires. > [@](#): > > The SUV came to a stop on the lawn of a home, and the fire hydrant was shooting water into the sky, and the water was pooling on the sidewalk. The LAFD explains: > > ``` > Underneath the vehicle was an old fashioned concrete light standard, leaving behind electrical wires sticking out of the ground. The wires were disguised by darkness, running water, and the commotion of a growing crowd. > > ``` Good god. Passing people in the center lane, driving 70 mph through a residential neighborhood. Yes, charge him with vehicular manslaughter, which he has been. He can have his day in court. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/6 "2013-07-26T17:34:50Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > If he had hit someone, I say charge him, but you can’t foresee this type of thing. Let’s say he hit the power pole, and it fell onto another car, killing the occupants. Unforseen, but a direct consequence of reckless driving. I think this situation can be compared to that. I don’t think you get to say that you didn’t think the downed power line you caused by driving recklessly would hurt anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/7 "2013-07-26T18:16:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Let’s say he hit the power pole, and it fell onto another car, killing the occupants. Unforseen, but a direct consequence of reckless driving. I think this situation can be compared to that. I don’t think you get to say that you didn’t think the downed power line you caused by driving recklessly would hurt anyone. I think the issue is that he couldn’t foresee that his driving recklessly would bring down a power line. But I’m all for making someone who is reckless pay for all the actual consequence, foreseen or unforeseen. He might not have foreseen what actually did happen, but he certainly could foresee stuff like fatal collisions which didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/8 "2013-07-26T18:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > The defense attorney also argued that the people on the scene should have known the inherent dangers associated with downed power lines and standing water. Let’s see, at night there were what, 2 people killed when they approached to help and 6 people more that were ‘merely’ injured by electrocution? I’m thinkin’ the danger was _not_ obviously inherent to those first arrivals and the realization came after attenders started dying on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/9 "2013-07-26T18:53:46Z")
I think that downing a pole and causing an electrical hazard _ **is** _ in fact a foreseeable consequence of reckless driving. Maybe not a guaranteed outcome, but then neither is any specific outcome. Power poles are not a rare or unexpected object to find on the side of the road. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/10 "2013-07-26T19:03:59Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I think that downing a pole and causing an electrical hazard _ **is** _ in fact a foreseeable consequence of reckless driving. Maybe not a guaranteed outcome, but then neither is any specific outcome. > > Power poles are not a rare or unexpected object to find on the side of the road. The danger from a downed pole is also a foreseeable consequence when trying to help the person who crashed his car into it. It might be a tough call in the end, depending on the law that would apply. I don’t have any problem with throwing the book at him though. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/11 "2013-07-26T19:06:52Z")
I’m not a lawyer but this sounds like it falls squarely into manslaughter territory at the very least, perhaps involuntary manslaughter? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/12 "2013-07-26T19:28:40Z")
If its felony reckless driving, why cant he be charged with murder? A bad outcome for him but it would really send a message to other street racers. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/13 "2013-07-26T19:53:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The danger from a downed pole is also a foreseeable consequence when trying to help the person who crashed his car into it. It might be a tough call in the end, depending on the law that would apply. I don’t have any problem with throwing the book at him though. Rescuing someone from immediate physical danger very often poses some risk of injury to the rescuer, but many times people will still try to so (and thank goodness for that!). This is not a good reason to absolve a deliberately reckless driver of legal consequences resulting from injuries sustained by rescuers, though. Quite the opposite, I’d argue: the driver should not have been doing things that he knew might result in well-meaning bystanders putting themselves in harm’s way for his benefit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/14 "2013-07-26T19:56:40Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Rescuing someone from a vehicle crash very often poses some risk of injury to the rescuer, but many times people will still try to so (and thank goodness for that!). This is not a good reason to absolve a deliberately reckless driver of legal consequences resulting from injuries sustained by rescuers, though. Quite the opposite, I’d argue: the driver should not have been doing things that he knew might result in well-meaning bystanders putting themselves in harm’s way for his benefit. I wouldn’t argue the principle, but what the law says will be important here. There must be some level of disconnection between events where you can’t hold the driver responsible. At least in this case there is no question that the driver was reckless, and violating the law. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/15 "2013-07-26T20:26:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I wouldn’t argue the principle, but what the law says will be important here. There must be some level of disconnection between events where you can’t hold the driver responsible. At least in this case there is no question that the driver was reckless, and violating the law. I can think of situations where I might have trouble justifying holding this guy responsible for his rescuer’s injuries, sure. If they’d been caused by a freak roadway meteor strike, for example, because who expects that to happen? But this dude was driving recklessly on streets that he had to know were lined with electrified cables, and it doesn’t take Nostradamus to predict that smacking into one of those might lead to trouble. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/16 "2013-07-26T20:34:18Z")
My laymen’s understanding of criminal negligence (which often leads to manslaughter convictions) is that if you are doing something illegal, regardless of your intent to maim or kill, you can be held legally culpable for manslaughter. If there is no malice aforethought, it’s involuntary manslaughter. If someone can prove that you were thinking, “I’m gonna drive like a maniac and I don’t care if I kill anyone who gets in my way!” then you probably could be found guilty of voluntary manslaughter. So this guy seems guilty of manslaughter in the least, to me, since his illegal actions directly lead to the deaths of the people who tried to help. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/17 "2013-07-26T20:41:29Z")
When you go driving 70mph through a residential street at night, it’s not that hard to predict that _something_ is likely to go wrong, and it won’t be too unexpected if people die or get thoroughly hurt in the process. That’s why it’s against the frigging law in the first place! Now, it may take a certain amount of creativity to predict in advance exactly _how_ things will go wrong. You might not have predicted the electricity poles. But that the night is going to end in bloodshed and tears, is a rather plausible outcome in itself. It’s not like doing something illegal but very unlikely to cause physical harm, like cheating on your taxes, and then killing someone via death-by-papercut through a fantastically improbable series of events. Bottom line, he did something which was very likely to cause harm and which is illegal for that very reason, and it did indeed cause harm. Surprise, surprise. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/18 "2013-07-26T21:01:46Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I can think of situations where I might have trouble justifying holding this guy responsible for his rescuer’s injuries, sure. If they’d been caused by a freak roadway meteor strike, for example, because who expects that to happen? But this dude was driving recklessly on streets that he had to know were lined with electrified cables, and it doesn’t take Nostradamus to predict that smacking into one of those might lead to trouble. I agree. What I’m trying to say is I don’t know the specifics of the law as it applies to this. I don’t count on the law always making sense. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/19 "2013-07-27T16:30:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If its felony reckless driving, why cant he be charged with murder? A bad outcome for him but it would really send a message to other street racers. IANAL, but second degree murder requires intent. That doesn’t seem possible under the circumstances to prove that. He is facing vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence, which he could face several years in prison. [This is the street](https://maps.google.co.jp/maps?q=12000+Magnolia+Boulevard,+Los+Angeles,+CA,+United+States&hl=en&ll=34.164837,-118.394284&spn=0.000421,0.000603&sll=36.5626,136.362305&sspn=37.30712,79.013672&oq=12000+Magnolia+Boulevard&t=h&brcurrent=3,0x0:0x0,0&hnear=12000+Magnolia+Blvd,+Valley+Village,+Los+Angeles,+California+91607,+United+States&z=21)he was turning onto when he lost control. Had he navigated the turn he still clearly he should not have been going that fast down that narrow of a street. The OP is overly sympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597/20 "2013-07-27T16:45:08Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > I frick’n hate reckless drivers! It doesn’t help his case that he’s fulfilling the stereotype to a T. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driver-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-electrocution-deaths/664597.md?page=2)