# Drivers and red-lights **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 5, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262 "2022-01-05T13:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/21 "2022-01-06T01:17:35Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I was always under the impression that that was not a red light, but the equivalent of a stop sign On the blinky yellow side it’s a “proceed with caution” and on the blinky red side it is indeed the equivalent of a stop sign. You don’t get the caution side of it from signs. When I have seen it used, the light would function normally during the day and would switch into blinky mode at night, so replacing it with signs wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![billy-jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@billy-jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy-jack)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/22 "2022-01-06T01:59:22Z")
I don’t think that we have any yield signs here. In fact, I don’t remember ever seeing a yield sign in the entire county. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/23 "2022-01-06T15:09:27Z")
Yes, it varies by jurisdiction. Growing up in Ontario, you could be ticketed for being IN an intersection on a yellow even if you cleared it before it turned red. Not sure if that’s changed since I left. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/24 "2022-01-06T15:22:34Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I have not seen it where I live (SW Ohio). SW Ohio here too. I see it all the time. When my light turns green, I then look both ways before entering the intersection, not trusting the red lights to form an impenetrable force field that can stop cross traffic. Depends on the time of day and the intersection, but in rush hour with long lights, it’s pretty common for at least one or two to come through after the light has changed. > [@RitterSport](#): > > If you have a big intersection, it’s super common for everyone in the intersection waiting to turn left to do so after the light is red. I wouldn’t really call that “running a red light”, and it shouldn’t be all that dangerous, since everyone can see the cars in the intersection waiting to turn left. Technically, only one car didn’t break traffic law there. _A_ car may enter the intersection while waiting for oncoming traffic to stop. If that car is still in the intersection after the light changes, they have the right of way. You are not permitted to enter an intersection if there is already a car in it. All the other cars now _do_ have the right of way, as they need to clear the intersection before it can be used, but they did not get into that position legally, and certainly could be ticketed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/25 "2022-01-06T15:32:36Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Just yesterday I saw someone completely blow through a 4-way stop going the opposite direction as me. Fortunately the person in the side street whose turn it was saw them coming. Was I behind you yesterday, or is it just that common? (Probably common) > [@jjakucyk](#): > > the person I was riding with went right through a red light. It turned red maybe 50’ before we even got to the intersection, but we were already halfway through when someone going the opposite direction did exactly the same thing, while also going straight from a left-turn-only lane. There’ve been times when I pushed it, and maybe was not properly in the intersection before the light changed. And then 2 or 3 cars follow me through. 🤨 > [@asterion](#): > > My parents, for instance, live on a cul-de-sac that exits onto another residential road with clear lines of sight and little traffic. I see no reason why the stop sign that exists there couldn’t be a yield sign. Where I spent much of my time growing up (and my parents still live), has a similar set-up. Bunch of residential roads with sul-de-sacs. When I was young, there were not any stop signs at most of the intersections, like you said, clear lines of sight and little traffic. Yet, those clear lines of sight and little traffic did not prevent the occasional fender bender that occured because there was no clear right of way. There are stop signs at those intersections now. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/26 "2022-01-06T15:32:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are not permitted to enter an intersection if there is already a car in it. Learn something new every day. However, I would still say that the rest of the cars aren’t “running a red light”. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/27 "2022-01-06T16:27:11Z")
I see plenty of people running red lights but it doesn’t seem to be more than any other time in my life. Can I tell you that I have been rear ended no fewer than five times making a right turn on red because I actually stop and apparently no one else does? > [@running\_coach](#): > > I’ve noticed a drastic increase over the past 8-9 months. To the extent that drivers are going through when cross traffic has the green and is starting to move. I haven’t noticed this. Most of what I see is people a second or so late through the light. Traffic generally hasn’t started moving. > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Just want to point out some municipalities have 4 second timers, while others have 5 or 6. I live where it is 6, and got caught out on vacation this year when I drove somewhere which only had 4 for pretty much every light I saw. (Didn’t get a ticket tho) I think that higher speed roads tend to have longer timers. Six seconds is really long though. I thought the gaps were usually between three and four seconds. If you went somewhere where the prevailing speed limits are lower, you should generally expect short yellow lights. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The only traffic law I see broken on a somewhat frequent basis is turning right when the traffic light is red and there’s a “No Turn on Red” sign. I see many. Speed limits (I’m guilty too). Not fully stopping for stop signs. Not stopping on red before making a right turn. Making a right turn on red where it’s prohibited. Not stopping for pedestrians in the cross walk. Entering restricted (“Do Not Enter”) streets or making certain turns during times when it’s prohibited (you basically can’t cut through my neighborhood during commuter hours but people do it anyway). > [@Telemark](#): > > But you’re also required to try to stop if the light is yellow. Accelerating on yellow is not allowed. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case. I was trained that yellow means “stop if it is safe to do so.” This doesn’t actually seem to be the law so far as I can see, though, and I’m not aware of any legal prohibition on accelerating through a yellow. > [@RitterSport](#): > > If you have a big intersection, it’s super common for everyone in the intersection waiting to turn left to do so after the light is red. I wouldn’t really call that “running a red light”, and it shouldn’t be all that dangerous, since everyone can see the cars in the intersection waiting to turn left. Only one car is supposed to enter the intersection to turn left. The others aren’t technically guilty of red light running but they are likely guilty of something like obstructing the intersection (called “blocking the box” in NYC). However, depending on how far back in the intersection the last cars are, it can look like running the red light. It’s pretty easy to be ahead of the stop line when the light turns red (so not red light running) but parked on a wide crosswalk and fully behind the imaginary line where crossing traffic will drive. If that person shoots into the intersection long after the light has turned red, it will look like they ran the red light. That person shouldn’t have been in the intersection at all but the better decision when the light turns red on them is likely to wait for the next signal. Even if it means that they are still blocking the crosswalk. > [@sitchensis](#): > > A line of 10 cars waiting to take a left. 5 make it through on the green, another 3 during the yellow. The last 2 just go for it and force the oncoming traffic to not accelerate on green. I see this a lot too but I wouldn’t say it’s more common now. It’s just always been pretty common. > [@billy-jack](#): > > The judge got upset and took the police out for a demonstration. That judge is an idiot. > [@Snipe70e](#): > > I believe the law in California requires you to be able to clear the intersection before the light turns red. I can’t speak to California but I haven’t heard of this elsewhere. Cars and trucks can drive pretty slowly if they choose, some trucks are big, and there are laws that make it very clear that even traffic with a green light has to yield to traffic that is already in the intersection. My inference is that traffic can take basically as long as it needs to get across even if the cross traffic light turns green in the interim. There are prohibitions on blocking an intersection by proceeding into it unless you can pass all the way through it but that would seem to apply if you were forced to stop because you had nowhere to go rather than just because you went too slowly through the intersection. > [@asterion](#): > > [i]n many cases there’s no reason a stop sign couldn’t be replaced adequately with a yield sign. There are lots of people who seem to think every stop sign is a four-way stop. Many of these same people also don’t believe in stopping fully for a stop sign. So if they are approaching a stop sign a few feet ahead of crossing traffic they will roll through the stop sign as normal, expecting the cross traffic to slow enough for them to pass. Instead, they will collide with crossing traffic that has no obligation to or intention of stopping. I think a flashing red light indicates to most people that the traffic on the other side won’t stop so that they must actually stop. > [@billy-jack](#): > > I don’t think that we have any yield signs here. In fact, I don’t remember ever seeing a yield sign in the entire county. No highway on ramps? No channelized right turn lanes? ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/28 "2022-01-06T18:49:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Was I behind you yesterday, or is it just that common? (Probably common) If you were at Roe and Plainville then yeah. Lady sailed right through, I laid on my horn, and she didn’t even blink. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/29 "2022-01-06T22:09:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yet, those clear lines of sight and little traffic did not prevent the occasional fender bender that occured because there was no clear right of way. There are stop signs at those intersections now. But a yield sign sets the right of way. I mean, nobody is ever going to be pulled over for running that stop sign. And it’s not improper in such a situation to treat a yield sign as a stop sign if conditions warrant. I don’t run it as much as I used to since I no longer have a stick shift. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/30 "2022-01-06T22:20:57Z")
Another one I’ve seen around here is bus drivers, who seem to believe that as long as the light was green at the time they stopped to pick up or drop off a passenger, they have the right to go immediately when they finish the pick-up or drop-off. No matter what the light or cross traffic has done meanwhile. To be fair, it might have just been one bus driver whom I saw repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2022, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/31 "2022-01-06T22:30:02Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > If you were at Roe and Plainville then yeah. Ah, woulda been a fun coincidence, but I haven’t been on that side of town in years. So yeah, I guess it’s just that often. > [@asterion](#): > > I don’t run it as much as I used to since I no longer have a stick shift. Much as I miss a manual, that’s one place I don’t. I’d gotten pulled over a number of times for “California rolling” through stop signs. Never got a ticket though. Now that I drive an automatic, there’s a bit less incentive to keep forward momentum going. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/32 "2022-01-07T00:02:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Laws vary by state but in general one is permitted to enter the intersection in anticipation of making a left turn and wait till oncoming traffic allows it. This can include waiting for the oncoming traffic’s light to turn red (which often means your light has turned red as well, but you are already in the intersection, so your light no longer applies to you), and you can legally turn. This is how it’s suppose to work. And in heavy traffic may be the only way to make a left. This is my impression as well. I learned to drive in the Midwest, wife learned to drive in Texas, and we don’t agree. I would note that sometimes you’re trying to make a left and a large vehicle facing you is trying to make a left. You can’t see around that vehicle, so you kind of don’t dare make the turn for fear other traffic will appear and T bone you before you make it through. So you venture out…the red light stops those vehicles so you can proceed safely. I think that only works for one, maybe two vehicles, however. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/33 "2022-01-07T12:09:38Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > > [@billy-jack](#): > > > > I don’t think that we have any yield signs here. In fact, I don’t remember ever seeing a yield sign in the entire county. > > No highway on ramps? No channelized right turn lanes? No roundabouts? One possibility for increased running of red lights is that they changed the behavior of traffic lights some time back. Although I think it’s been long enough that it probably isn’t the reason. What I’m talking about is that lights usually go to a 4-way red for a second or two after the yellow. That’s obviously meant to increase safety, but those kind of changes generally increase it only temporarily. People will adjust their driving behavior in response so that the accident rate goes back to where it was before. Another, very recent, change to traffic light behavior is that when someone pushes the crosswalk button, they get a couple seconds head start. That is, the crosswalk signal will go on about two or three seconds before the cars get a green light. I first saw this change some time last year and only on a few intersections. This is in Hillsboro OR; I don’t know if anywhere else has this. ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/34 "2022-01-07T14:25:58Z")
I am not sure I understand the left turn thing. In Alberta when making a left turn at a light, you are taught to pull into the intersection when green, and turn when safe to do so. If you can not complete the turn before the light changes, it is perfectly legal to complete your turn on the red. In heavy traffic this is the only way any left turns can be made at some intersections. Some drivers do not seem to understand this, but most do. Same with right turns on red, some intersections the pedestrian traffic is high enough that you cannot make a right turn on the green. Entering the intersection after the red to make the left turn is not legal and a jackass maneuver, and pretty rare here. Burning straight through on the red is somewhat common, but not anymore than it has always been as far as I can tell, maybe even less so now as a lot of lights have cameras, and you will get a large ticket in the mail. All that said we just had a big cold snap, roads were crazy slippery, and myself and a zillion others burnt some reds as stopping in time wasn’t happening. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/35 "2022-01-07T15:03:39Z")
> [@FluffyBob](#): > > If you can not complete the turn before the light changes, it is perfectly legal to complete your turn on the red. That seems to be the general, though not universal, rule/law. I just want to clarify however that if you cannot clear the intersection (irrespective of when the light changes), such as when the road you’re turning into is backed up, then even entering the intersection in the first place is a violation. Again, that may not be universal, but it seems to be the most prevalent. Same for just going straight. If you’re stranded in the intersection blocking other traffic after the light turns red, you broke the law. New York City isn’t unique in that respect, they just police it more rigorously because it can lead to gridlock (in the more literal sense as opposed to the vernacular definition of any traffic jam). ---
**Author:** ![billy-jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@billy-jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy-jack)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/36 "2022-01-07T17:19:12Z")
We don’t have any roundabouts in my county, but there is one in the next county south. My younger brother used to drive a lot as part of the job he had at that time. Sometimes he would be coming home through the roundabout at 2 or 3 in the morning. Sometimes he would circle around it a couple of times at about 20 mph and then slowly take the exit toward home. Nearly every time he did that, he would quickly have a police car following him down the highway and it would sometimes stay behind him all the way to the next town. ---
**Author:** ![billy-jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@billy-jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy-jack)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/37 "2022-01-07T17:27:07Z")
Highway onramps? Our busiest highway goes to the county seat. I can often drive 55 to 60 mph all the way to the county seat without having anyone come up behind me and need to pass. After some thought, though, I do remember two yield signs in the county. Both are where a side road runs into a main highway at an acute angle which makes it less easy to turn around and look to see if someone is coming. My uncle was killed in an accident years ago at one of them. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/38 "2022-01-07T21:23:33Z")
> [@billy-jack](#): > > We don’t have any roundabouts in my county, but there is one in the next county south. Well, it’s about time your county got one. > [@](#): > > My younger brother used to drive a lot as part of the job he had at that time. Sometimes he would be coming home through the roundabout at 2 or 3 in the morning. Sometimes he would circle around it a couple of times at about 20 mph and then slowly take the exit toward home. Nearly every time he did that, he would quickly have a police car following him down the highway and it would sometimes stay behind him all the way to the next town. It’s not illegal to do that, but it would suggest to the cop that he was a possible DUI. The following would be to confirm or disprove. > [@billy-jack](#): > > After some thought, though, I do remember two yield signs in the county. Both are where a side road runs into a main highway at an acute angle which makes it less easy to turn around and look to see if someone is coming. My uncle was killed in an accident years ago at one of them. And there are a couple candidates for roundabouts. Acute angle intersections are almost always high crash zones and roundabouts are the perfect fix for them. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/39 "2022-01-08T15:58:08Z")
And bus drivers often have unrealistic routes and schedules and punishments that push them to push the edge to make up time. Not to say some bus drivers aren’t jerks, but I know several and they all complain that the company sets goals that are unreasonable, given how much traffic varies in the course of a day ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262/40 "2022-01-08T16:13:08Z")
We spent a lot of time in New York City and also in Texas in 1981. We observed that the custom in each place was workable, but that people going from one to the other were at risk. In Texas, people would go through early red lights and would continue waiting for a few seconds at green lights. Thus they acted on the basis that the right of way changes states several seconds after the light does. In New York, people would try to anticipate when the light would turn green, and would enter the intersection when they thought it would change, therefore sometimes starting on the red, but people were also more likely to obey the beginning of red lights. Thus they tried to change right of way simultaneous with the light change, or sometimes inadvertently slightly before. No idea if we’d come to that conclusion today as I haven’t stayed in either place for many years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-and-red-lights/957262.md?page=3)