# Driver's license's for illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639 "2003-09-10T00:19:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/21 "2003-09-10T16:22:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Is that an endorsment of the CA bill? > > I agree it’s a sad story. But your friend has learned an important lesson: breaking the law has consequences. \*\* I don’t think that “your young adult years (and your chance at higher education and other oppurtunities) can be ruined because the choices your parents make leave you vulnerable to extortion with no recourse” is that great of a lesson. If your argueing that he shouldn’t have been driving…well this bill will fix that, won’t it? ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/22 "2003-09-10T16:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Yep! A foreign invader/illegal alien/criminal is an “enemy” of our Constitution and our “LAWS”. I really dont see how you think a foreigner who illegally sneaks accross our borders to break and in violation of our laws, is a “friend” of our laws, or our sovereignty, or how anyone who supports same, facilitates same, or who wants our borders insecure and violated is a “friend” of our laws or Constittution. You don’t see it because I never said it. Care to show me where in law, regulation or judicial precedent an illegal immigrant, or for that matter any offender/criminal/transgressor/contravenor of ordre public, is deemed an Enemy of the Nation or of its Constitution? The Oath of Allegiance is not based on one family’s sense of moral superiority because it “completely and totally dutifully” did something lawfully that another family did not. I’m also still curious as to how you know what “most people” think. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/23 "2003-09-10T16:56:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*I don’t think that “your young adult years (and your chance at higher education and other oppurtunities) can be ruined because the choices your parents make leave you vulnerable to extortion with no recourse” is that great of a lesson. > > If your argueing that he shouldn’t have been driving…well this bill will fix that, won’t it? \*\* Firstly, I don’t accept the “he can’t attend college” premise. He has lots of options (including declaring bankruptcy) if he is so deeply in debt. There is also no age limit to attending college. Secondly, although you don’t say it explicitly, you imply that the woman he hit was faking her injuries. You don’t know that. Is her story also not “sad”? Thirdly, at age 16 you are old enough to know right from wrong. If your actions cause injury to others, there is a price to pay and you should not whine about paying it. Get it out of the way, and move on with your life. What are his parents doing to alleviate the burden he has acquired? Do they recognize that they are partly to blame and should be helping him out? And parents who encourage their children to break the law are as much guilty of child abuse as those who physically harm them. There are thousands of immigrants who come here legally, work their butts off to make sure the children can get ahead, obey the laws, and add a great deal to our society. As for the CA bill, why does anyone think that someone here illegally will want to expose themselves to “the system” to get a driver’s license and then take the step of getting insurance to boot? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/24 "2003-09-10T17:49:09Z")
Regardless of one’s immigration status (or lack thereof), one has every right to dispute a false claim of injury on the part of the other party. Had your friend been born in the US and still decided to drive when he was unlicensed, he’d still be facing the applicable penalties for that. even sven’s depiction of the lesson learned is inaccurate. The lesson learned is: Don’t drive when you’re not licensed. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/25 "2003-09-10T17:54:39Z")
> [@](#): > > If your argueing that he shouldn’t have been driving…well this bill will fix that, won’t it? Best way to stop crime is to legalize it, therefore making it not a crime by definition, eh? Good god, I’m glad you’re not the one in charge of eliminating murder. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/26 "2003-09-10T17:55:31Z")
BTW, illegal immigrants who reside in California and have attended a California high school for a certain time (IIRC, 2 years) are considered by California to be California residents for the purposes of tuition. ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/27 "2003-09-10T18:27:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by enipla \* > \*\* > I “don’t know the rules of the road in Mexico” But I can drive there just fine. \*\* You also “don’t know when to use quotation marks” and if you really could “drive in mexico just fine” you would “know” that “the” rules in “Mexico” are “way different” from here. You would have an “understanding” that Mexican people might “need” some training in our "rules of " the road. People who really care about the presence of undocumented immigrants should really not pick this battle. It’s one based on the premise that they’re here, they’re driving, it’s taking up police time and tax dollars not to have them licensed. They’ve been here without driver’s licenses for generations and their ability to get a license will in no way impact their decision to be here. Their labor is in demand. You really want to make a difference? Refuse to buy produce harvested, packaged, or shipped by undocumented workers. Refuse to set foot in a building that was worked on by undocumented immigrants. Don’t eat in any restaurants either, unless you bring your own dishes and are willing to prep your own salad. Good luck with that. Reasons it’s a good idea: If they have licenses, they can be found if they commit crimes. They will be arrested less frequently and cause less legal problems by simply possessing an ID. Someone with a license has more to lose than someone without. If you have a license, you can have your license revoked. Having these people care about things will make our society more stable, and thus more peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/28 "2003-09-10T18:33:19Z")
In an era when people flly airplanes into buildings for the express purpose of killing thousands of men, women and children, I think we can foego the issue of giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses. We should not be making to easier to come to this country illegally. Let’s get our priorities straight. ---
**Author:** ![Daisy\_Cutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Daisy\_Cutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daisy_Cutter)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/29 "2003-09-10T18:37:29Z")
Best case scenario: Gray Davis is a liar, who is doing exactly the opposite of what he previously said he would not. Politicians who realize they have a snowballs chance in hell of winning an election, often resort to desperate tactics, I would assume. Worst case scenario: Gray Davis is a fifth columnist, who is a threat to the safety of the citizens of the USA. Can he be brought up on treason charges or acting against the laws of the USA ? The illegal alien supporters have absolutely no case at all, and I view people who support illegals as highly suspicious. These illegal aliens are lawbreakers, and cannot be trusted with anything, let alone driving a car. It is just insane. You do not reward people who have deliberately broken laws and disrespected your country, with a drivers license. What makes anybody think that they would obey the laws of the road ? Even if they would, it hardly matters one bit. The solution is to arrest those illegals who are found driving, and follow this up with a prompt and swift deportation back to where ever it is they originated from. Make the message clear, those who are found to be here illegal, will never ever be able to acheive legal status. They are criminals, and should be treated as such. The best way to solve the problem of illegals driving around in cars, is to make the penalties extremely harsh for these criminal lawbreakers. The USA is a country made up of immigrants, however illegal immigration should not be tolerated in any way shape or form. I wouldn’t be surprised if them Al Qaeda types are currently putting on some sombreros and putting “Plan B” into action. This bill is ridiculous and unlawful, even in “peacetime”, but in a time of war, this bill is just absurd and braindead. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/30 "2003-09-10T18:44:36Z")
It is not just a Californian problem, this would affect all of us. A California drivers license, is all you need to get a Michigan drivers license, a Maryland drivers license, a Florida license, etc, if they come to California to get a license and then go back to another state. A drivers license is all you need to have to buy a gun. Why do you want illegal aliens/terrorists to be able to buy guns in your state? Have you already forgotten the illegal alien who was the Washington DC sniper? A drivers license is all you need to get on an airplane. Why do you want illegal aliens/potential terrorists to get on airplanes with you? Do you want more 9-11’s? A drivers license is all you need to get a voters registration card. Why do you want illegal aliens to vote in your elections? Why do you want illegal aliens to decide who is going to be our next president or your mayor? A drivers license gets you lots of other things too, credit, cars, food stamps, welfare, etc. Those who want illegal aliens here should be made to pay entirely for the services that illegal aliens use, like schools, hospitals, food stamps, welfare, etc and the rest of us who dont want illegal aliens here should not have to pay anything for them. How come those who want illegal aliens here are not promising to pay for all of the services that they use, and how come they are not taking full responsiblitiy for all of the crime and other problems that illegals cause? I still think this topic is a joke, no one in their right mind would 10, 20 or 100 million illegal aliens running around with guns, flying in our airplanes, and voting in our elections while using all of the government services meant for american citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/31 "2003-09-10T20:00:25Z")
I agree completely, Susanann. This bill also coincides with Dem plans for anyone in the state to register to vote up to the day of the election, and just needing a drivers license to register. The ONLY thing I can see this to be is an effort to make it so illegal aliens really aren’t illegal in California…and make it so that any illegal alien can register to vote VERY easily, which would likely mean more votes for Dems. It’s absolutely ridiculous, it’s just one more reason why Gray Davis and his bedbuddy whackos in the CA legislature should all be removed from office. ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/32 "2003-09-10T20:41:40Z")
Daisycutter, Susanann, are you being sarcastic or are you really that ignorant and fearful? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/33 "2003-09-10T21:08:24Z")
Perhaps we should stop keeping records of people with DUI convictions. We know that they’re going to drive even if we suspend their licenses. Sounds silly, doesn’t it? The strange thing about the CA bill is that it would be soundly defeated if it had been a ballot initiative. I can say this since every ballot inititative aimed at making it harder for illegal aliens to enter the mainstream has passed with a considerable majority. I believe this is a big problem for the Dems and is going to come back and haunt them. I cannot believe that the majority of voters in CA favor this bill. If someone has poll numbers on this issue, I’d be interested in seeing them. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/34 "2003-09-10T21:14:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*It is not just a Californian problem, this would affect all of us. > > AA drivers license is all you need to get a voters registration card. Why do you want illegal aliens to vote in your elections? Why do you want illegal aliens to decide who is going to be our next president or your mayor? > > \*\* Are you kidding me? Poor minorities vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Democrats are the ones who want to give “amnesty” (citizenship) to all illegal aliens. They also promise a lot of goodies that are mostly paid for by rich people. Davis is courting the Hispanic vote. Many Hispanics view anti-illegal immigrant as anti-Hispanic. They have more ties with their home country and want more of their “homees” over here as citizens. Politicians court votes like night follows day. It may be bad for the country having 3 million illegals, or however many the number is, coming over every year, but it’s great for the Democratic Party, and that’s all that counts. “But they pay taxes!”. Yes, they do, but they don’t make much money, so they don’t pay much taxes. They have alot of kids, which means alot of schools etc, at 10K / year per student. They also get free health care for the most part as they’re poor. I know that all this is “racist” of course, but I’d say it no matter what their race. Why would anyone want to be gov’ of CA anyway? State tax rates in CA are 10% or thereabouts, together with an 8% sales tax. I would predict that Davis or Bustamante win and they simply increase taxes by 20-30% to cover any shortfall. They’ve already raped an pillaged the business community (together with the trial lawyers) with runaway worker’s compensation laws what’s another 2% of your income to the state of CA? I hope they open the door for all Mexicans to come in and give them each a house, two cars, free medical care (it’s a right!). They will drive the state to bankruptcy and the rest of the country can see what happens when you elect Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Daisy\_Cutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Daisy\_Cutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daisy_Cutter)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/35 "2003-09-10T21:17:16Z")
Greck, I thought cheap insults were reserved for the pit. I am dead serious, what makes you think my post was sarcastic ? It is those that are in support of these criminals that are extremely ignorant and naive. These people are the ones who wish to reward lawbreakers, and other deviants with a total disregard for the most basic fundamental laws of our land. No wonder California is an economic nightmare. No amount of cheap arguments will take away from the **fact** that these aliens entered the country illegally. It doesn’t matter if the intruders are Mexicans, Canadians or Martians. They are criminals, and they don’t belong here. ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/36 "2003-09-10T21:22:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Perhaps we should stop keeping records of people with DUI convictions. We know that they’re going to drive even if we suspend their licenses. Sounds silly, doesn’t it? > \*\* Quite silly, yes. Undocumented immigrants having licenses would in fact give us more records of them, and thus increase their accountability. Revoking a license for a driving offense is logical. Crossing a border and drivers licenses are disparate. So maybe a better quip would be: “Maybe we should revoke all the driver’s licenses of people who are caught shoplifting since we know they’re going to shoplift whether they drive or not right?” ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/37 "2003-09-10T21:25:21Z")
Is Susann being “ignorant and fearful”? What’s ignorant about not wanting your tax money spent on people who are here ILLEGALLY? If we opened our borders we’d probably have 100million illegals here. Is that what we should do? Do we owe them all food, housing, medical care, schooling for their kids (in their native language of course, forcing English on immigrants is racism, as we all know). Why should the people nearest our shores get the benefits of proximity? Maybe, to be fair, we should charter boats and bring in any and all people from every corner of the globe to our country. Anything less is racism. Who in the world is supposed to pay for all of this? I know, they’ll just raise taxes, and anyone who doesn’t like that is a racist right winger. Where will all these people live? Obviously in gov’t supported housing, anything less would be racist, of course, but don’t you think the country would be much more crowded? Traffic jams and the like? Now that assimilation is officially racist and evil, anyone who doesn’t like the idea of 20 different ethnicities, with loyalties to their own ethnic groups first over the US as a whole, many of whom can’t speak English and have no desire to learn, is officially racist. What’s wrong with replacing an English speaking country with a tower of Babble? ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/38 "2003-09-10T21:51:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > \*\* > > what makes you think my post was sarcastic ? > > It doesn’t matter if the intruders are Martians. They are criminals \*\* oh, I dunno why I had trouble taking your view seriously, hmmm… Do you actually know any Illegal aliens? I mean, really know any? It’s been my experience that it’s hard to be that prejudiced against a person you know. If you do, and they’re terrorists, criminals and lawbreakers, I’d really like to hear about why you haven’t contacted the police. If you don’t know any, then you’re really quite ignorant as to the motives of even one illegal alien, let alone any or all of them. I personally know several, and have known many over the course of my life. Newsflash: They’re people. They want what people want. They want to work and raise families in the best environment possible, and they’re even willing to put themselves at risk of being arrested on a daily basis to do so. I swear to god, I was having a conversation on Monday with a group of men who are here without documents about the daily paranoia of being arrested. I don’t know if I would trade a constant state of anxiety for a chance at a better life for my family, but I’d like to think I would. You wanna talk about cheap insults? Do you really think that Mexicans walk around wearing sombreros? If you really do, you don’t know much about mexico, and are thus ignorant. If not, I certainly don’t see how that comment isn’t some sort of use of the people of mexico as a stereotype joke. So are you being cheap or ignorant? It’s just that in most of what you posted, one could substitute the word “Irish” for “Illegal Alien” and it wouldn’t sound too different from the overt hate speech of yester year, so I was dubious as to whether or not you were serious. Incidentally, if the martians want driver’s licenses I say we let them. They’ve obviously more skilled at space travel than we are if they make it all the way to california. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/39 "2003-09-10T21:56:03Z")
For those interested, here are the current requirments to get a CA driver’s license from [the CA DMV web site](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#BDLP): > [@](#): > > State law requires every applicant for an original California identification (ID) card and driver license to show verification of birth date and proof of legal presence within the United States to help safeguard the accuracy and integrity of departmental documents. > > Only the original or a certified copy of one of the following documents is acceptable: > > U.S. Birth Certificate > U.S. Certificate or Report of Birth Abroad > Federal Proof of Indian Blood Degree > INS American Indian Card > Birth Certificate or passport issued from a U.S. territory > U.S. Passport > U.S. Citizen Identification Card > U.S. Military Identification Cards > Certificate of Naturalization or Citizenship > Northern Mariana Card > Resident Alien Card > Temporary Resident Identification Card > Canadian Passport or Birth Certificate > Nonresident Alien Canadian Border Crossing Card > Valid foreign passport with a valid Record of Arrival/Departure (form I-94) > Certification from California Department of Corrections or California Youth Authority > Employment Authorization Card > Mexican Border Crossing Card with valid I-94 > A valid foreign passport with a “Processed for I-551” stamp > Permanent Resident Re-entry Permit > Refugee travel document > Certificate of Identity with a valid I-94 > Valid I-94 stamped “Refugee,” “Parole or Parolee,” “Asylee,” or Section 207, Section 208, Section 209, Section 212d(5), HP or PIP Notice of Action (I-797 Approved Petition) > Immigration judge’s order granting asylum > Valid I-94 with attached photo stamped “Processed for I-551 temporary evidence of lawful admission for permanent residence” > U.S. Border Crossing ID card and Visa with valid I-94 ---
**Author:** ![Daisy\_Cutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Daisy\_Cutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daisy_Cutter)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639/40 "2003-09-10T22:16:21Z")
Greck, you qouted me as saying \*\* “It doesn’t matter if the intruders are Martians. They are criminals” \*\*, when in fact my true qoute was \*\*“It doesn’t matter if the intruders are Mexicans, Canadians or Martians. They are criminals, and they don’t belong here.” \*\* Is there a malfunction of the _delete_ key on your computer keyboard ? I suggest you fix it. And no, I don’t personally don’t know any illegal aliens, though I would imagine I see them all the time, since I live in a fairly large metropolis. And I could care less what their motives are for coming here. A crack dealer selling drugs in a schoolyard might also claim poverty, and that he is doing it to feed his 7 illegitimate children. It hardly matters what ones motives are, when violating such serious laws. And I’m not that familiar with the Irish immigration, but what do they have to do with anything ? Are you implying that they did not come here legally ? I seem to recall the European immigrants entering through Ellis Island. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-licenses-for-illegal-immigrants/200639.md?page=3)