# Drivers who hit me because they can't stop at a red light **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196 "2017-07-13T21:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/41 "2017-07-15T02:34:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I see people blow through red lights just about every day. I’m a magistrate, and have begun imposing maximum fines ($150 here) when people plead to or are convicted of the offense before me. It’s an epidemic. Thank you. Please keep it up, and lean on your legal brethren to do the same. The biggest problem, though, is that so often there’s no cop around when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/42 "2017-07-15T03:07:04Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So, it’s a cash grab after all. Nope. Never was. The problem is that, in effect, the car gets the ticket, not the driver. Unless they get a real good image, it’'s hard to prove who the driver is. So the $75 fine (in Houston) did not go against anyone’s driving record. People wouldn’t pay the fines, so the city started impounding cars. The rest is history. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/43 "2017-07-15T03:10:50Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Nope. Never was. > > The problem is that, in effect, the car gets the ticket, not the driver. Unless they get a real good image, it’'s hard to prove who the driver is. So the $75 fine (in Houston) did not go against anyone’s driving record. People wouldn’t pay the fines, so the city started impounding cars. The rest is history. Perhaps you misunderstand what “cash grab” means. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/44 "2017-07-15T03:48:29Z")
Well, I once had the pleasure of seeing a red-light runner, who ran right across my path, get nailed. It was many years ago. I was stopped at a red light, first in line. The road to my left was a multi-lane high-speed freeway off-ramp. Stopped immediately behind me was a cop. My light turned green. I began moving forward into the intersection. Before I gained much speed, and before I was fully into the intersection, I noticed the car barreling down the off-ramp from my left, at high speed, not even slowing down. I stopped where I was. That car barreled through the intersection and turned left onto the street I was on, against his red light, without ever slowing down. The cop behind me noticed, of course (since I had started moving and then stopped). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/45 "2017-07-15T04:31:40Z")
I’m frequently astounded and angered when I elect to slide through a yellow light or maybe even a pink one (mostly by accident) and I see three more cars behind me come through. Often the last one was a hundred feet back. As a pedestrian, I once watched a car got through a light as it turned red and I counted SEVEN cars following him through the light. Some people seem to think that if the light was green at any point as they approached, they are entitled to go through. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/46 "2017-07-15T04:38:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The problem is that, in effect, the car gets the ticket, not the driver. Unless they get a real good image, it’'s hard to prove who the driver is. So the $75 fine (in Houston) did not go against anyone’s driving record. Works differently in Australia, or at least in the state of New South Wales, where i used to live If your car gets a red light ticket, the infraction notice, including points on your drivers license, is sent to the registered owner of the car. If the owner was the driver, he or she pays the fine, and gets the points. If they were not driving, they are required by law to provide a statutory declaration (basically, an affidavit) saying who was behind the wheel. Once that document has been received by the authorities, they will send the infringement notice out to the person nominated by the owner. If the car is registered to a company or an organization, a similar system applies. The notice is sent to the company or organization, and the owner or other person in charge is required to inform the authorities who was driving the car at the time of the infraction. In order to encourage companies and organizations to give up the guilty party, the amount of the fine for a company car is “five times the amount applicable to an individual,” but once the driver is identified, his or her fine reverts to the regular amount. The rules are outlined in this PDF document. The statutory declaration that the owner submits nominating the actual driver is a legal document, and there are pretty sever penalties for submitting a false stat dec. Nonetheless, if [this news story](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-25/drivers-dodge-fines-in-multi-million-traffic-fine-fraud/6880742) is any indication, a significant number of Aussies try to dodge the penalty by nominating people who have overseas drivers licenses, whom it is very difficult for the Australian police to pursue. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/47 "2017-07-15T04:44:33Z")
Ran out of editing time. The fines for failing to nominate the driver are pretty big, including > [@](#): > > an additional fine of more than $1,200 for companies/organisations for a first offence and over $3,000 for a second or subsequent offence. > > Fines of over $590 can be issued to individuals who fail to nominate the driver responsible by the due date on the penalty reminder notice. Courts may issue fines of up to $11,000. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/48 "2017-07-16T21:50:33Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m frequently astounded and angered when I elect to slide through a yellow light or maybe even a pink one (mostly by accident) and I see three more cars behind me come through. Often the last one was a hundred feet back. As a pedestrian, I once watched a car got through a light as it turned red and I counted SEVEN cars following him through the light. Some people seem to think that if the light was green at any point as they approached, they are entitled to go through. Same here, especially at intersections with protected left turns. It’s gotten so bad I have waited a second after the light goes green for _my_ way, then lay on the horn, pointing at the driver last car in the intersection so they know, _It’s **you** I’m honking at, putz_. Most of them look startled. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/49 "2017-07-16T22:01:26Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m frequently astounded and angered when I elect to slide through a yellow light or maybe even a pink one (mostly by accident) and I see three more cars behind me come through. Often the last one was a hundred feet back. As a pedestrian, I once watched a car got through a light as it turned red and I counted SEVEN cars following him through the light. Some people seem to think that if the light was green at any point as they approached, they are entitled to go through. I think some people think they have a statutory right to wait through no more than one light. If they waited through a red they get to go on the next green, even if it doesn’t stay green by the time they get to it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/50 "2017-07-16T22:03:25Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > As a pedestrian, I once watched a car got through a light as it turned red and I counted SEVEN cars following him through the light. Some people seem to think that if the light was green at any point as they approached, they are entitled to go through. Mostly I see this sort of thing around Christmas time, when people are distracted, angry and impatient. Of course, yesterday I almost killed a kid on a bike because I was slowing to turn right on the green when the ‘walk’ sign came on for him and he just darted out in front of me without looking in any direction. :smack: Lucky for him I was paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/51 "2017-07-17T05:09:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yesterday, my wife and I were waiting at a red light, and a guy pulled up next to us in the right-turn lane and came to a stop. > > At first I thought he was waiting for cross traffic to clear before making his right turn, but then there was no traffic any which way for awhile and he still didn’t turn. > > Then he drove _straight ahead_ through the intersection while the light was still red, maybe 10 seconds before it turned green. A common driving manoeuvre here in Lethbridge is to wait and wait and wait to make a right turn on a red (even when they have opportunities to go) then they go as soon as the walk light for pedestrians come on (and get quite irate when us pedestrians try to start walking with the walk light we waited for). It makes no damned sense - all I can figure is that they are incompetent, untrained drivers who have no idea what they’re doing. Another strange thing I see daily is people veering into the parking lane and back while driving on a middling busy residential street. They’re not parking; they just seem to want to drive closer to the curb every chance they get. Again, I think it can be ascribed to incompetent, untrained drivers, who don’t realize that veering back and forth from lane to lane is a terrible, dangerous idea. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/52 "2017-07-17T08:04:27Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Perhaps you missed the ‘around here’ part of my comment? The overall statistics are, of course, quite clear, but around here I have personally witnessed many more incidents involving cyclists ignoring traffic lights than cars. Sorry not checked back in here. So you’re going for the “I’m going to lie about what I said earlier in the thread” gambit, combined with the “extreme special pleading” tactic combined with the “unverifiable personal anecdote” technique. Phew, I haven’t seen bullshit piled that thick since I visited a cattle feedlot. Firstly, this is what you said at the outset: > [@Quartz](#): > > You know, the really dangerous road users are the bicyclists, who completely ignore lights and pedestrians crossing. I’ve read this upwards, backwards, sideways and frontwards, several times. You’re right. I’m missing the bit where you say “around here”. _Because it’s not there, you disingenuous toad_. Never mind how you tried to qualify later. Secondly, you don’t seriously expect me to believe you live in some weird little locale where cyclists kill and maim more often than cars, do you? It’s a transparent attempt back away from your idiotic first “contribution” to this thread. If “splattering this thread with IQ reducing garbage” can be described as a “contribution”. Where do you live, anyway? Thirdly, what can I say? Your unverifiable, highly implausible anecdote floors me. How can one hope to convince [this man](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/bd/b2/67/bdb267aa15c1c7e860029555b16e0483--rain-shower-umbrellas-parasols.jpg) that it’s not raining? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/53 "2017-07-17T14:54:10Z")
I saw red lights run at three separate intersections on my commute just this morning. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/54 "2017-07-17T15:59:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yesterday, my wife and I were waiting at a red light, and a guy pulled up next to us in the right-turn lane and came to a stop. > > At first I thought he was waiting for cross traffic to clear before making his right turn, but then there was no traffic any which way for awhile and he still didn’t turn. > > Then he drove _straight ahead_ through the intersection while the light was still red, maybe 10 seconds before it turned green. Yesterday morning, I came up to this same intersection, and this time, I needed to make a right turn. The light was green. And there was someone just sitting in the right turn lane, going nowhere. I had to swing into the straight-ahead lane to go around this person and make my turn. It looked like they were stopped to figure out where they were going. Maybe they thought they were pulled off onto a shoulder rather than in a turn lane? It’s a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/55 "2017-07-17T16:15:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Works differently in Australia, or at least in the state of New South Wales, where i used to live > > If your car gets a red light ticket, the infraction notice, including points on your drivers license, is sent to the registered owner of the car. > > If the owner was the driver, he or she pays the fine, and gets the points. If they were not driving, they are required by law to provide a statutory declaration (basically, an affidavit) saying who was behind the wheel. Once that document has been received by the authorities, they will send the infringement notice out to the person nominated by the owner. > > If the car is registered to a company or an organization, a similar system applies. The notice is sent to the company or organization, and the owner or other person in charge is required to inform the authorities who was driving the car at the time of the infraction. In order to encourage companies and organizations to give up the guilty party, the amount of the fine for a company car is “five times the amount applicable to an individual,” but once the driver is identified, his or her fine reverts to the regular amount. > > The rules are outlined in this PDF document. > > The statutory declaration that the owner submits nominating the actual driver is a legal document, and there are pretty sever penalties for submitting a false stat dec. Nonetheless, if [this news story](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-25/drivers-dodge-fines-in-multi-million-traffic-fine-fraud/6880742) is any indication, a significant number of Aussies try to dodge the penalty by nominating people who have overseas drivers licenses, whom it is very difficult for the Australian police to pursue. What if you don’t know who exactly was driving at that point in time? For example: Suppose four of my friends want to borrow my car for a road trip out of town. All four of them have drivers’ licenses. If I can’t make out the driver from the photo, the best I could truthfully say is that “It wasn’t me, I lent the car to the following people: … I’m not sure which one of them was doing the driving.” Granted, so far it’s not an issue where I live, as ticket cameras are illegal by state law, as mentioned upthread. Also, since my car is a manual, nobody ever asks me to borrow it. 😃 Not that I’d let them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/56 "2017-07-17T16:17:34Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > What if you don’t know who exactly was driving at that point in time? For example: Suppose four of my friends want to borrow my car for a road trip out of town. All four of them have drivers’ licenses. If I can’t make out the driver from the photo, the best I could truthfully say is that “It wasn’t me, I lent the car to the following people: … I’m not sure which one of them was doing the driving.” You would probably just write what you know on the declaration. The fundamental requirement is that you tell the truth. The government person who reads your declaration would, i assume, then decide how to proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/57 "2017-07-17T18:18:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You know, the really dangerous road users are the bicyclists, who completely ignore lights and pedestrians crossing. Most especially, it seems, Deliveroo riders. AND ride on the wrong side of the street. But heaven forbid you impinge on their three foot buffer zone, because then you’re in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/58 "2017-07-17T18:22:31Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > AND ride on the wrong side of the street. But heaven forbid you impinge on their three foot buffer zone, because then you’re in the wrong. Because those guys are going to be the same cyclist. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/59 "2017-07-17T18:28:41Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Because those guys are going to be the same cyclist. :rolleyes: Yes, they are. I had a situation a couple of weeks ago where I was driving on a freeway that comes to an end at a stop light on a surface street. Normally, the speed there is 65 slowing down to 55 then 45 then stoplight, but there was construction going on and the speed limit was 45 where it’s normally 65. A guy behind me (I was in the right lane) honked at me, sped around me, and his passenger, shirtless and tattooed, unbuckled his seat belt, came halfway out of the window, and swore at me and flipped me off. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196/60 "2017-07-17T18:32:52Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Yes, they are. No, really they are not. The wrong way cyclist probably won’t care about where your car is because he’s poorly educated about cycling and thinks he’'s being safe by dodging your car. The cyclist who complains about you intruding into the safety zone is upset because you are disobeying the law in most states and risking his safety either through selfish malice or incredible incompetence when you overtake them. That cyclist very rarely rides the wrong way down streets, if at all. > [@](#): > > I had a situation a couple of weeks ago where I was driving on a freeway that comes to an end at a stop light on a surface street. Normally, the speed there is 65 slowing down to 55 then 45 then stoplight, but there was construction going on and the speed limit was 45 where it’s normally 65. A guy behind me (I was in the right lane) honked at me, sped around me, and his passenger, shirtless and tattooed, unbuckled his seat belt, came halfway out of the window, and swore at me and flipped me off. What does this story have to do with cyclists riding the wrong way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drivers-who-hit-me-because-they-cant-stop-at-a-red-light/791196.md?page=4)