# Driving "rules" that they don't teach you in driver's ed **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 1, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254 "2010-02-01T16:08:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/181 "2010-02-03T19:54:20Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I was taught to downshift all the time, too. However… > > Constant downshifting is harder on your clutch, as it starting up from second gear. Also, brake pad replacements are cheaper than clutch replacements. > > Also, downshifting in very slippery (i.e. icy) conditions can put you into a spin, if you drive a rear-wheel drive car without a limited-slip differential. (Ask me how I know this. :eek:) Yes, this is part of the reason my husband told me to shift into neutral to brake on ice and snow. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/182 "2010-02-03T19:54:36Z")
The situation I’m talking about I drive every day. It goes like this - Traffic is flowing a smooth 50mph (the speed limit). You reach a BIG ASS SIGN that says Left Lane Ends in 1500 feet. This is where people need to start thinking about moving to the right. But no, some idiots take this as an indication that everyone is getting out of their way and stay in the left lane all the way till the end. By that time there is often no more spaces to merge into and they have to force their way into a spot that is too small, causing other people to brake all down the line disrupting what could have been and WAS a smooth flow of traffic. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/183 "2010-02-03T19:57:39Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > The situation I’m talking about I drive every day. > > It goes like this - > > Traffic is flowing a smooth 50mph (the speed limit). You reach a BIG ASS SIGN that says Left Lane Ends in 1500 feet. This is where people need to start thinking about moving to the right. But no, some idiots take this as an indication that everyone is getting out of their way and stay in the left lane all the way till the end. By that time there is often no more spaces to merge into and they have to force their way into a spot that is too small, causing other people to brake all down the line disrupting what could have been and WAS a smooth flow of traffic. Haha, did you read the thread before you posted this? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/184 "2010-02-03T20:02:23Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > Robby, nothing you have said is news to me. I have repeatedly said the exact same shit no less than three times in this thread. The problem is that no one who zooms around the line is doing favors for anyone other than themselves, and, in fact, are actively harming the rest of the line. > > Yes, if you have proper signage, things work much better, but if you don’t, it’s much better to go with the consensus on the road. > > It’s exactly the opposite of the Left-Lane driver scenario you describe. In that case, the left lane driver is the anomaly, and is causing traffic disruption, while technically obeying the law. In the case of early-merging, the line-cutter is the anomaly, actively making traffic worse. As Ronald Reagan put it, “There you go again.” 😉 If the late-merger is in the lane that is ending, proceeding along until he gets to the merge point, **then he is not a line-cutter**. Ideally, there would be a whole line of drivers ahead of him doing the same thing, but if everyone else is determined to jump over early, then so be it. And you are absolutely wrong to state that late-mergers are “actively harming the rest of the line.” It’s the early-mergers who do the harm. Studies have shown that the early-mergers are the ones who create the traffic back-up in the first place! Ideally, you wouldn’t need signs. Everyone would use both lanes up to the merge point, and then merge. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/185 "2010-02-03T20:08:44Z")
> [@robby](#): > > And you are absolutely wrong to state that late-mergers are “actively harming the rest of the line.” It’s the early-mergers who do the harm. Studies have shown that the early-mergers are the ones who create the traffic back-up in the first place! > > Ideally, you wouldn’t need signs. Everyone would use both lanes up to the merge point, and then merge. I should clarify this. Early mergers cause backups if they cause drivers in the adjacent lane to have to brake to let them in. If traffic is light enough that nobody has to brake at all, then it doesn’t really matter where people merge. However, as traffic volumes increase and traffic slows down, it is far preferable for everyone to merge at one, consistent point. The optimal point is where the lane ends. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/186 "2010-02-03T20:11:05Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > Haha, did you read the thread before you posted this? Certainly. **EmAnJ** There is really no reason to shift to neutral because you’re on ice and snow. Just as long as you are not aggressively downshifting. It is always best to match the gear you are in with the speed you are going. Even when you are slowing down. And, automatics will help you slow down if you don’t put it in neutral. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/187 "2010-02-03T20:32:41Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I should clarify this. Early mergers cause backups if they cause drivers in the adjacent lane to have to brake to let them in. What I see is just the opposite. The late merger gets to the point where there is no more road. That is what is causing him to brake. The early mergers then have to brake to let him in. Outside of people jumping out of line and forcing themselves back in, I also see folks that are late mergers seeing this as an opportunity to pass people going the speed limit. Often, once the late merger gets to the choke point, there is no room to merge into. Once again they force their way in, making the early mergers brake and slowing the free flowing traffic all down the line. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/188 "2010-02-03T20:46:09Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > Indeed I would. If 90% of the people are early mergers, it’s best for the other 10% to go with the accepted solution rather than try to force the optimal solution on them. > > It may be slightly irrational, but people think of a freeway bottleneck where a line has formed in much the same way they think of the drive-thru at McDonald’s. By going around everyone, you give the impression that you’re better than them and don’t have to wait in the line that everyone else formed. In essence, proclaiming yourself [Emperor of the World.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=152737) I’m not trying to force an optimal solution on anyone. You want to merge early? Fine. You are an idiot. I just want a shot at a (sub-)optimal solution for myself without one of those idiots who also happens to be self-righteous whipping their car into my lane like they are the merge police. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/189 "2010-02-03T20:59:16Z")
One that gets me, especially in DC (Southbound Mass Ave right turn onto the Rock Creek Parkway) is the right turn on a RED ARROW. The turn has a separate RED ARROW for the right turn lane which is there to induce otherwise perky drivers to refrain from running over joggers and bikers. It does NOT prevent the right turn on red allowed by law (and no sign is there refuting it) but since there is a signal light there almost no-one will turn until it goes green. Grrr. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/190 "2010-02-03T21:13:09Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > One that gets me, especially in DC (Southbound Mass Ave right turn onto the Rock Creek Parkway) is the right turn on a RED ARROW. The turn has a separate RED ARROW for the right turn lane which is there to induce otherwise perky drivers to refrain from running over joggers and bikers. It does NOT prevent the right turn on red allowed by law (and no sign is there refuting it) but since there is a signal light there almost no-one will turn until it goes green. > > Grrr. I believe you are wrong. If there is a red ARROW, and it is on, this precludes the right on red law. Perhaps you where not clear. But when the red arrow is lit, there is no right on red. Same with a red left arrow. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/191 "2010-02-03T21:17:20Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > What I see is just the opposite. > > The late merger gets to the point where there is no more road. That is what is causing him to brake. The early mergers then have to brake to let him in. > > Outside of people jumping out of line and forcing themselves back in, I also see folks that are late mergers seeing this as an opportunity to pass people going the speed limit. Often, once the late merger gets to the choke point, there is no room to merge into. Once again they force their way in, making the early mergers brake and slowing the free flowing traffic all down the line. If the traffic is heavy enough, then people are going to have to brake to let them in no matter where it takes place. However, with early-mergers doing their thing, you get lots of cars all changing lanes at random points over the mile or so between the warning and the end of the lane. If everyone were a late merger, you would get a consistent stream of traffic merging together at one, consistent point. Ideally, people take turns, so you get a zipper effect. If people were to use both lanes up to the merge point, you wouldn’t have the issue of people trying to jump into an empty lane, nor, if both lanes were filled, would you get people in the lane that’s ending going any faster than the adjacent lane. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/192 "2010-02-03T21:25:12Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I believe you are wrong. If there is a red ARROW, and it is on, this precludes the right on red law. Perhaps you where not clear. But when the red arrow is lit, there is no right on red. Same with a red left arrow. not true\* \*at least in illinois, florida ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/193 "2010-02-03T21:28:35Z")
> [@robby](#): > > If the traffic is heavy enough, then people are going to have to brake to let them in no matter where it takes place. > > However, with early-mergers doing their thing, you get lots of cars all changing lanes at random points over the mile or so between the warning and the end of the lane. If everyone were a late merger, you would get a consistent stream of traffic merging together at one, consistent point. Ideally, people take turns, so you get a zipper effect. > > If people were to use both lanes up to the merge point, you wouldn’t have the issue of people trying to jump into an empty lane, nor, if both lanes were filled, would you get people in the lane that’s ending going any faster than the adjacent lane. . :Shrug: I think we are talking past each other. You are going to be hard pressed to get a ‘zipper’ effect at 50-60 miles an hour. I’m talking about traffic that is going the speed limit. And about a specific lane ending. So that there is now a single through lane. So it’s not so much a merging of lanes. It’s a lane ending. If the people that had their lane ending would pay attention and move into the through lane ahead of time a bit, people would not have to brake for them and let them in when the late mergers have no other options open to them. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/194 "2010-02-03T21:32:44Z")
crap, missed edit window: right turns on red arrows are not permitted in DC, however. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/195 "2010-02-03T21:45:55Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > not true\* > \*at least in illinois, florida Odd. Seems to be a number of places where it’s not real clear. You can’t turn on a red arrow in Colorado. I thought this was universal. > [@CDOT](#): > > (III) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal may not enter > the intersection to make the movement indicated by such arrow and, > unless entering the intersection to make such other movement as is > permitted by other indications shown at the same time, shall stop at a > clearly marked stop line but, if none, before entering the crosswalk on > the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the > intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to make the > movement indicated by such arrow is shown. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/196 "2010-02-03T21:55:54Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > . :Shrug: I think we are talking past each other. You are going to be hard pressed to get a ‘zipper’ effect at 50-60 miles an hour. > > I’m talking about traffic that is going the speed limit. And about a specific lane ending. So that there is now a single through lane. So it’s not so much a merging of lanes. It’s a lane ending. If the people that had their lane ending would pay attention and move into the through lane ahead of time a bit, people would not have to brake for them and let them in when the late mergers have no other options open to them. We’re not talking past each other–we’re talking about two different situations, both of which I discussed back in Post #177: > [@robby](#): > > …However, once the morning rush hour ends and the traffic speeds back to highway speeds, it is dangerous to have people merging over right as their lane ends at highway speeds (\>50 mph). At that point, you’d prefer that people move over much earlier. So what you actually need are electronic signs that change the message depending on traffic flow and the speed of traffic. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/197 "2010-02-03T22:02:09Z")
Alternatively, instead of electronic signs, you could just teach people to merge at any point if traffic is unimpeded, and to use both lanes and a designated merge point if traffic is backed up and moving slowly. Which is what I do now, actually. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/198 "2010-02-03T22:08:35Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Alternatively, instead of electronic signs, you could just teach people to merge at any point if traffic is unimpeded, and to use both lanes and a designated merge point if traffic is backed up and moving slowly. > > Which is what I do now, actually. Which is great. I get aggravated with the late mergers during good traffic flow that slow everything down. And, indeed make it dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/199 "2010-02-03T22:30:33Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I believe you are wrong. If there is a red ARROW, and it is on, this precludes the right on red law. Perhaps you where not clear. But when the red arrow is lit, there is no right on red. Same with a red left arrow. Nope, in DC it is clearly marked with a sign when the turn is not permitted, arrow or no. If not, right turn on red applies. I had an open discussion with a DC cop on this… ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254/200 "2010-02-03T22:36:57Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > Nope, in DC it is clearly marked with a sign when the turn is not permitted, arrow or no. If not, right turn on red applies. I had an open discussion with a DC cop on this… this is verbatim from the District of Columbia Department of Motor Vehicles Driver Manual - it appears your cop is mistaken. > [@](#): > > Steady Red Signal > Stop. Come to a complete stop before reaching the intersection, stop line or > crosswalk and remain stopped as long as the signal is red. You may turn right at > a red signal after coming to a complete stop, unless there are signs posted at the > intersection, which read “No Turn on Red.” When turning on a red signal, you > must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and all other traffic. > > … > > Steady Red Arrow Signal > Stop. Come to a complete stop before reaching the intersection, stop line or > crosswalk for the direction indicated by the arrow. Remain stopped as long as the > arrow signal is red. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/driving-rules-that-they-dont-teach-you-in-drivers-ed/527254.md?page=11)