# Droids make some sense in the original Star Wars trilogy, zero sense in the prequels **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344 "2015-06-24T11:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/61 "2015-06-26T00:59:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How fucking crazy was it that Lucas didn’t set _The Phantom Menace_ on Alderaan? That’s such an obvious choice: it’s major name from the original trilogy that’s barely fleshed out there, it’s got major ties to one of the characters whose origin the prequel trilogy is trying to establish, and making new viewers familiar with the planet in the prequels makes seeing it blown up in the originals that much more emotionally effective. > > Instead we get Naboo. Goddammit, George. YES! You are the first person I’ve seen agree with me that why did he invent a new planet for Padme and Palpatine to be from called Naboo, when Alderan was the obvious choice! It would have linked into the OT by making us care and see the planet obliterated in ep 4, and it would have made sense why Leia was raised there is Padme was from there. I just in my head assume Naboo is really Alderan. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/62 "2015-06-26T01:03:02Z")
Something to keep in mind for the setting of the prequels that doesn’t come through in the films. There has literally not been any war in the Republic or any of the planet members for thousands and thousands of years. No one has any experience or clue how to wage war, they are having to learn as they go. This is a very poor fanwank, but it is true that the last war was thousands of years in the past. They really are not good at the whole war tactics deal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/63 "2015-06-26T01:41:32Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I basically agree with you, but you might be giving the original movies a little too much credit. For example, no part of AT-ATs make sense. They are even more preposterous than the battle droids for an advanced military. However, they carry the day through sheer coolness, and that’s something that isn’t true of anything in the prequels. In the SW universe they’re sufficently within sense that the coolness gets them through. Any sci fi or fantasy movie will have holes and silliness. There’s just no way around it. What matters is the consistency and the use of those things to advance the MOVIE. Do the whiz bang lasers or magic spells push forward a story about a hero with an arc and a good villain and people you care about? “Toy Story” exists in a world with inexplicable magic and i can name lots of holes if I wanted to but its rules are sufficiently consistent and the magic doled out only as far as needed to tell an absolutely sensational, human story. WALL-E is nonsense in a lot of ways but, again, uses the nonsense just enough to tell one hell of a story. Those movies are full of silly leaps of logic and impossibilities, but what matters bout them is what they say about friendship and loyalty (Toy Story) or what makes humans good (WALL-E). What the hell does The Phanton Menace tell you? It’s hardly even a coherent story. So you see the holes. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/64 "2015-06-26T02:37:36Z")
> [@grude](#): > > There has literally not been any war in the Republic or any of the planet members for thousands and thousands of years. No one has any experience or clue how to wage war, they are having to learn as they go. > > This is a very poor fanwank, but it is true that the last war was thousands of years in the past. They really are not good at the whole war tactics deal. It’s worse than a fanwank. It’s less plausible than the droids and makes the droids even less believable as a result. Why was this society free of war? The majority of people were humans, just like us. The rest of them were Wookies and Ewoks and Hutts and Jar Jar Frog people who were also just like us and shown to be quite willing to use violence and armed troops to get what they want. Why would they stop fighting? What was this mysterious force preventing war? Was it terror akin to the threat of nuclear weapons? Was it some sort of mind control? Something else? And if there were no wars, where did all the slaves come from? If there was no war and no armies what prevented a slave rebellion? And where did all the weapons come from? For a world with no wars, why did every man and his dog carry firearms? Are we expected to believe that we could have gang wars involving the Hutts, but somehow it never extended to the point a Somalia, even though there were no armies? And why dd this mysterious peace keeper break down overnight? If one man (The Emporer) can circumvent it and start a war, then why didn’t all the Al Capones start wars to make planets their own? None of this makes any sense. It’s not that this is poorly developed in the movies, it’s that it is the major point required for the plot to work, but we are never told how the rules for it work. There can be no tension if we start with a world that has a peacekeeping deus ex machina, but one man has found how to sabotage it, but we are never told how, the limits of that sabotage, how or even if it can be restored etc. It’s like a Bond movie where the villian has stolen a Doomsday device that will stop all armies except his own. But we are never told where he stole it from, how it stops armies, whether it has already been activated, if it is reversible, how it might be stopped or any other details. It’s a movie without tension because there can be no sense of what, if any, challenge the heroes face. At the end of the day, if your justification for a plot point that makes no sense at all is a completely unexplained device that creates a world in which it makes sense, all you’ve done is created two points that make no sense, instead of one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/65 "2015-06-26T02:41:48Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why would they stop fighting? What was this mysterious force preventing war? I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/66 "2015-06-26T03:24:44Z")
Please. The Imperial Probe Droid from Empire was more menacing than any droid army in the new trilogy. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/67 "2015-06-26T03:48:36Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s worse than a fanwank. It’s less plausible than the droids and makes the droids even less believable as a result. > > Why was this society free of war? The majority of people were humans, just like us. The rest of them were Wookies and Ewoks and Hutts and Jar Jar Frog people who were also just like us and shown to be quite willing to use violence and armed troops to get what they want. > > Why would they stop fighting? What was this mysterious force preventing war? Was it terror akin to the threat of nuclear weapons? Was it some sort of mind control? Something else? > > And if there were no wars, where did all the slaves come from? If there was no war and no armies what prevented a slave rebellion? > > And where did all the weapons come from? For a world with no wars, why did every man and his dog carry firearms? Are we expected to believe that we could have gang wars involving the Hutts, but somehow it never extended to the point a Somalia, even though there were no armies? > > And why dd this mysterious peace keeper break down overnight? If one man (The Emporer) can circumvent it and start a war, then why didn’t all the Al Capones start wars to make planets their own? > > None of this makes any sense. It’s not that this is poorly developed in the movies, it’s that it is the major point required for the plot to work, but we are never told how the rules for it work. There can be no tension if we start with a world that has a peacekeeping deus ex machina, but one man has found how to sabotage it, but we are never told how, the limits of that sabotage, how or even if it can be restored etc. > > It’s like a Bond movie where the villian has stolen a Doomsday device that will stop all armies except his own. But we are never told where he stole it from, how it stops armies, whether it has already been activated, if it is reversible, how it might be stopped or any other details. It’s a movie without tension because there can be no sense of what, if any, challenge the heroes face. > > At the end of the day, if your justification for a plot point that makes no sense at all is a completely unexplained device that creates a world in which it makes sense, all you’ve done is created two points that make no sense, instead of one. One easy assumption is that the Jedi in their role as peacekeepers was what was preventing war, but when the emperor of the Republic is secretly a sith lord well that short circuits their usual methods. Remember they can psychically change people’s thoughts and motivations(these aren’t the casus belli you’re looking for) so all it takes is a diplomatic visit from a couple of jedi masters and …conflict averted. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/68 "2015-06-26T05:11:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > One easy assumption is that the Jedi in their role as peacekeepers was what was preventing war, but when the emperor of the Republic is secretly a sith lord well that short circuits their usual methods. > > Remember they can psychically change people’s thoughts and motivations(these aren’t the casus belli you’re looking for) so all it takes is a diplomatic visit from a couple of jedi masters and …conflict averted. But once again, none of this is even hinted at in the movies. And once again, what are the implications of this? How is this mysterious power shut down? Why would this power work in the first place? It’s established that the power doesn’t work on some races at all, and only works well on the most weak willed of humans, so how would this prevent a war? And that means the Jedi are preventing people from going to war by using mind control techniques, under orders from a government that tolerates slavery. Which repaints the Jedi as Secret Police of a particularly nasty Fascist State. And everyone must know that “Jedi Ambassador” means “You are About to be Mind Raped into a Compliant Vegetable”. It’s not like the Jedi’s powers are secret. And it’s not like everyone wouldn’t know what had happened if every Lincoln or Malcolm X walked into a room with an “Ambassador” and emerged a state compliant pacifist. Which means that no matter how many leaders you mind rape you still need an army to deal with the inevitable spontaneous civil uprisings that would result, as every totalitarian state that has relied on this technique of “reeducating” “separatist leaders” has found. Which makes the idea of the Republic/Rebels as “good guys” pretty tenuous. And once again, if this power exists, where are all the weapons and slaves coming from? It’s all well and good positing that droids were crap because people didn’t go to war, but then you need to explain why people didn’t go to war. And when that explanation is itself inconsistent and unexplained, it just further highlights how crappy the droids were. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/69 "2015-06-26T06:20:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Please. The Imperial Probe Droid from Empire was more menacing than any droid army in the new trilogy. Haha, totally true, and it shows how an aesthetic can devolve. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/70 "2015-06-26T06:34:58Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Which repaints the Jedi as Secret Police of a particularly nasty Fascist State. Yes, Ep. IV gets it right: The ideals of the Republic and the Jedi are left to the imagination: one plugs in “good guys.” Darth Vader is clearly evil. The Emperor is a mystery in the background. It’s pretty cool, sophisticated stuff, made more fun by the aforementioned references to cheesy 30s/40s serials. In the prequels, everything is spelled out, and the picture isn’t very flattering–nor entertaining in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/71 "2015-06-26T07:01:01Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And that means the Jedi are preventing people from going to war by using mind control techniques, under orders from a government that tolerates slavery. Slavery is illegal in the Republic - the slaves we see in the prequels are from planets owned by the Hutts, who are an independent polity. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/72 "2015-06-26T07:25:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Slavery is illegal in the Republic - the slaves we see in the prequels are from planets owned by the Hutts, who are an independent polity. Potato pohtahto. This is like saying that England never tolerated slavery, only the Caribbean colonies did, and they were independent polities. Obviously the Hutts were under the control of the Republic, or they would have invaded Republic planets, since the Republic has no armies and no knowledge of warfare. It’s not like the Hutts were equivalent of Mexico, where the US would have to fight a war to shut down slavery, drug operations etc. This was a neighboring territory that never made any moves against a state that we have been told is utterly defenceless, with no military and nobody with a basic understanding of tactics. And since the Jedi can mind control leaders into not going to war they can certainly mind control them into outlawing slavery. But they never do. Even if the slavery is occurring outside its borders, it is tolerating it because it can shut it down very simply with no bloodshed using methods that it accepts using on its own citizens on a regular basis. This would be like the US accepting slavery in Mexico when all it needs to do is send an ambassador to say "Stop it please and it would stop instantly. And this is where the whole “no knowledge of warfare” and “Jedi can dictate foreign policy through mind control” becomes ridiculous. We can accept the Hutts as a neighbouriing, independent state ruled by vicious warlords if the Republic has some mechanism to stop them form sending out armies to invade ever more planets AND the Republic has no way to project enough force shut them down. But accepting that a state with no army is abutted by an utterly incompatible, totally independent state ruled by hostile warlords makes even less sense than the droids. Whatever the status of the Hutts, they had to exist under the aegis of the Republic or vice versa, otherwise there would be no reasons for them to respect the borders and no reason for the Republic not to mind rape them out of business. If the Hutts rule multiple planets they must be able to put together an army of at least a few hundred thousand, which is enough to totally conquer a planet with no concept of warfare and no army. And if the Hutts being immune to mind control makes it impossibel to outlaw slavery that way, then it also makes it impossible to stop them form going to war against a defenceless republic. And this what I mean when I say that this attempt to explain away the crappiness of the droids keeps opening ever larger holes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/73 "2015-06-26T12:18:48Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > But they never do. Even if the slavery is occurring outside its borders, it is tolerating it because it can shut it down very simply with no bloodshed using methods that it accepts using on its own citizens on a regular basis. Jedi are guided by the Force, which (a) never told 'em to shut down that slavery, but (b) _did_ tell 'em what to do to their fellow citizens – and, cousin, business is a-_boomin’_. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/74 "2015-06-26T14:07:26Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I would have liked to see Alderaan more but if it had worked that way people would have complained it was “Small Universe Syndrome”. Also Alderaan is about as pure and good a world gets in Star Wars so it would be hard to reconcile it was the birthplace of the Emperor. Why would Alderaan (or Naboo) for that matter have to be the birthplace of The Emperor? That’s just one more thing Lucas needlessly explained. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/75 "2015-06-26T14:55:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Slavery is illegal in the Republic - the slaves we see in the prequels are from planets owned by the Hutts, who are an independent polity. I got the impression that it was more like “Slavery is illegal in the Republic but the Republic is pretty far away.” In other words, the Republic didn’t have the will or power to enforce it on the fringes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/76 "2015-06-26T14:59:05Z")
The Jedi do not have mind-control powers. They have mind-_influencing_ powers. They can’t force a belligerent to back down from his cause… but they can give the belligerent the opportunity to calmly consider his options, including peaceful ones, so that he can realize on his own that the peaceful options are the ones that better accomplish his goals. They also have other advantages as diplomats, such as being independent from all of the various polities, and being respected representatives of the most commonly-recognized religion in the galaxy (for comparison, see all the treaties that the Pope negotiated in medieval Europe). Does this always work? No, for various reasons. But that’s why the Jedi also have their lightsabres. Start by sending in a pair of Jedi diplomats (like Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan at the start of Episode I) at the first sign of any trouble. In 99% of the cases, they’ll be able to nip the problem in the bud. In the remaining 1%, they come back with hundreds of Jedi, and hit the problem hard, before it has a chance to grow beyond their ability to handle. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/77 "2015-06-26T15:35:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Jedi do not have mind-control powers. They have mind-_influencing_ powers. They can’t force a belligerent to back down from his cause… but they can give the belligerent the opportunity to calmly consider his options, including peaceful ones, so that he can realize on his own that the peaceful options are the ones that better accomplish his goals. Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: You don’t need to see his identification. Stormtrooper: We don’t need to see his identification. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Stormtrooper: These aren’t the droids we’re looking for. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: He can go about his business. Stormtrooper: You can go about your business. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: Move along. Stormtrooper: Move along… move along. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/78 "2015-06-26T15:46:19Z")
That night, the Stormtrooper was talking to his wife on the Com-link. “I knew they were the right droids, but then the old man started talking, and I got all confused. I know tomorrow, I’m going to get force choked for sure.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/79 "2015-06-26T17:04:36Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Potato pohtahto. This is like saying that England never tolerated slavery, only the Caribbean colonies did, and they were independent polities. > > Obviously the Hutts were under the control of the Republic, or they would have invaded Republic planets, since the Republic has no armies and no knowledge of warfare. I can’t swear to this, because that would require re-watching the movie, and no internet nerdfight is worth going through that again, but I’m pretty sure there’s a line in _Phantom Menace_, when they’re arriving at Tatooine, where Qui-Gon explicitly states that the planet is not part of the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344/80 "2015-06-26T17:16:50Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Why would Alderaan (or Naboo) for that matter have to be the birthplace of The Emperor? That’s just one more thing Lucas needlessly explained. He may not have been literally born there, although he could have been…he certainly is from Naboo. He was their Senator). In this scenario we are swapping Alderaan and Naboo one for one so he would be from Alderaan now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droids-make-some-sense-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-zero-sense-in-the-prequels/723344.md?page=5)