# droit du seigneur **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 21, 2014, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216 "2014-03-21T09:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yehudaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/c57346/32.png) [@yehudaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yehudaz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/1 "2014-03-21T09:35:24Z")
Well, in the Book of Maccabees (which was written shortly after the events recorded occurred), it says that the Greek ruler of the Modi’in area in Israel did insist on droit du seigneur, which was one of the triggers to the Maccabean revolt. Not too much reason for propaganda after the fact, so it’s pretty safe to assume that the account is valid. However, we’re not talking about the Dark Ages in Europe here, but in the years 167-160 BCE. Just saying… * * * LINK TO COLUMN: [Did medieval lords have “right of the first night” with the local brides? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1139/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/2 "2014-03-21T09:58:26Z")
Most here do not consider the Bible a reliable source of historical fact. Do you have anything else in the way of evidence to prove that occurred? ---
**Author:** ![timharrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/58f4c7/32.png) [@timharrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/timharrod)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/3 "2014-03-21T13:24:30Z")
I’m no geneticist, but I imagine the Lord’s DNA would be all over the fiefdom and the inbreeding factor would lower the overall health of the community, ultimately breeding the practice of droit du seigneur out of the human community. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/4 "2014-03-21T14:43:56Z")
> [@yehudaz](#): > > Not too much reason for propaganda after the fact … > > * * * > > LINK TO COLUMN: [Did medieval lords have “right of the first night” with the local brides? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1139/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides) Which is why losers in wars, and the colonized and enslaved, never fiercely remember and mythologize past wrongs and even the smallest victory against their enemies (as in Maccabees). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/5 "2014-03-21T14:56:38Z")
> [@timharrod](#): > > I’m no geneticist, but I imagine the Lord’s DNA would be all over the fiefdom and the inbreeding factor would lower the overall health of the community, ultimately breeding the practice of droit du seigneur out of the human community. Didn’t work out too badly for the Mongols. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/6 "2014-03-21T20:45:13Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Which is why losers in wars, and the colonized and enslaved, never fiercely remember and mythologize past wrongs and even the smallest victory against their enemies (as in Maccabees). GThe Maccabean revolt wasn’t a “smallest victory,” but established the Hasmonean dynasty which lasted for almost 200 years. Certainly the victors may exaggerate the importance, but it shouldn’t be under-stated, either. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/7 "2014-03-25T17:56:35Z")
A previous thread on this topic: [Did medieval lords have "right of the first night" with the local brides? - Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=662586) ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/8 "2014-03-28T03:57:15Z")
I remember something like this in the Epic of Gilgamesh. One of Gilgamesh’s crimes was droit du seigneur and Enkidu was sent to fight Gilgamesh because of it. It seems an ancient _practice_ even if it was never really practiced. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/9 "2014-04-01T01:44:53Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > GThe Maccabean revolt wasn’t a “smallest victory,” but established the Hasmonean dynasty which lasted for almost 200 years. Certainly the victors may exaggerate the importance, but it shouldn’t be under-stated, either. Yes indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/10 "2014-04-01T02:05:27Z")
> [@yehudaz](#): > > Well, in the Book of Maccabees (which was written shortly after the events recorded occurred), it says that the Greek ruler of the Modi’in area in Israel did insist on droit du seigneur, which was one of the triggers to the Maccabean revolt. > Not too much reason for propaganda after the fact, so it’s pretty safe to assume that the account is valid. However, we’re not talking about the Dark Ages in Europe here, but in the years 167-160 BCE. > Just saying… That’s not actually in the Book of Maccabees. It’s in the scholion to the Megillat Taanit, which (the scholion, I mean) was written somewhere between the 7th and 11th centuries based on earlier commentary. Maccabees itself says that the revolt happened because the Greek king put an idol in the Temple, banned circumcision, and forced the Jews to eat treif and sacrifice to idols. The actual trigger happened when Matthias, the father of the Macabees, saw a Jew who was sacrificing to idols, and killed him and the Greek official who was overseeing the sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/11 "2014-04-01T12:54:10Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Didn’t work out too badly for the Mongols. Note the plural, “Mongols.” A better choice might be Charlemagne. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/12 "2014-04-01T15:38:31Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I remember something like this in the Epic of Gilgamesh. One of Gilgamesh’s crimes was droit du seigneur and Enkidu was sent to fight Gilgamesh because of it. > > It seems an ancient _practice_ even if it was never really practiced. Certainly, it was an obvious thought in any society where the rulers wielded theoretically absolute power (“One word, and my enforcers would bring that hottie to my bed”). The catch is that word “theoretically” – most rulers who stayed in power for very long knew that pissing off the peasants that much just wasn’t worth it, especially when there were always plenty of hotties susceptible to the persuasions available to the wealthy and powerful. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/13 "2014-04-02T04:12:40Z")
There is no “Book of the Maccabees”. There are between two and four, depending on how many you count. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/14 "2014-04-07T19:36:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s not actually in the Book of Maccabees. It’s in the scholion to the Megillat Taanit, which (the scholion, I mean) was written somewhere between the 7th and 11th centuries based on earlier commentary. Maccabees itself says that the revolt happened because the Greek king put an idol in the Temple, banned circumcision, and forced the Jews to eat treif and sacrifice to idols. The actual trigger happened when Matthias, the father of the Macabees, saw a Jew who was sacrificing to idols, and killed him and the Greek official who was overseeing the sacrifice. Nice correction. Also, some of most of us here are aware that in countless places the reliability of the Bible for matters of historical fact is quite extraordinary, and in many cases dispositive when consulted with other documentation, broadly speaking. No reason to strike a pose. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/15 "2014-04-08T14:18:08Z")
Calling the reliability of the Bible “extraordinary”, particularly in regards to “countless” instances, is itself extraordinary. I should think it would be a struggle to identify 10 such instances. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/16 "2014-04-08T14:40:26Z")
The meme of “droit du seigneur” has many reasons why it spreads and keeps spreading as a story, and absolutely none of them need it to be a true fact. 1. male fantasy. 2. horror story, combined with (1) 3. story to get worked up over if you want to pick a fight with some group. Or story to justify some revolt in hindsight. 4. story to congratulate oneself on living in enlightened times, and to look down on those stupid tyrants/spineless serfs back then. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/17 "2014-04-08T14:57:05Z")
> [@timharrod](#): > > I’m no geneticist, but I imagine the Lord’s DNA would be all over the fiefdom and the inbreeding factor would lower the overall health of the community, ultimately breeding the practice of droit du seigneur out of the human community. > [@Quartz](#): > > Didn’t work out too badly for the Mongols. > [@dropzone](#): > > Note the plural, “Mongols.” A better choice might be Charlemagne. It is estimated that 16 million living men today are direct descendants of one man, Genghis Khan. About 1 in 200 Russian Tatar men are his direct descendants and 1 in 10 Mongolian men. There are several ethnic communities in central and east Asia where similarly significant percentages of men have what is thought to be Genghis Khan’s Y chromosome. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/18 "2014-04-08T15:02:35Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > The meme of “droit du seigneur” has many reasons why it spreads and keeps spreading as a story, and absolutely none of them need it to be a true fact. > > 1. male fantasy. > 2. horror story, combined with (1) > 3. story to get worked up over if you want to pick a fight with some group. Or story to justify some revolt in hindsight. > 4. story to congratulate oneself on living in enlightened times, and to look down on those stupid tyrants/spineless serfs back then. That last one reminds me of the [Theodoric of York: Medieval Barber](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/77/77rtheodoric.phtml) skits with Steve Martin on Saturday Night Live: > [@](#): > > Why, just fifty years ago, they thought a disease like your daughter’s was caused by demonic possession or witchcraft. But nowadays we know that Isabelle is suffering from an imbalance of bodily humors, perhaps caused by a toad or a small dwarf living in her stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/19 "2014-04-08T16:05:42Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > …4. story to congratulate oneself on living in enlightened times, and to look down on those stupid tyrants/spineless serfs back then. Hey, everybody needs a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216/20 "2014-04-08T21:54:45Z")
> [@](#): > > …4. story to congratulate oneself on living in enlightened times, and to look down on those stupid tyrants/spineless serfs back then. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hey, everybody needs a hobby. [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal Comic](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3316#comic). If for nothing else, but using the word _Atavistic_. Remember that word. It’s going to be on the SAT! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/droit-du-seigneur/684216.md?page=2)