# Dropping Chairman of Joint Chiefs from NSC: Internal Strife? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537 "2017-01-29T22:43:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/1 "2017-01-29T22:43:45Z")
As as I’m sure most of you know Trump removed the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Director of National Intelligence from the National Security Council and replaced them with Steven Bannon. I was thinking (a dangerous pastime, I know) but is it possible that they were pushing back on Trump and that is something that he is not likely to tolerate? Furthermore, if so, that’s a good sign because it means that perhaps if he tries to do anything really crazy it simply won’t be done? Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/2 "2017-01-29T22:56:13Z")
As I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t see how showing such open contempt for such powerful parts of government help Trump. It may not hurt him, necessarily, but it sure doesn’t seem to be a net benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/3 "2017-01-30T06:07:02Z")
…I’m horrified that this thread has two responses. I came to the Dope tonight to specifically get people’s input and opinions on this. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/4 "2017-01-30T06:31:43Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > As as I’m sure most of you know Trump removed the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Director of National Intelligence from the National Security Council and replaced them with Steven Bannon. > > I was thinking (a dangerous pastime, I know) but is it possible that they were pushing back on Trump and that is something that he is not likely to tolerate? > > Furthermore, if so, that’s a good sign because it means that perhaps if he tries to do anything really crazy it simply won’t be done? > > Any thoughts? I’m not following. He ejected the people who were pushing back on him in exchange for his crony. Thus, people might stop doing the crazy things he asks of them? Wouldn’t cronies be _more_ likely to do the crazy things that he asks of them? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/5 "2017-01-30T06:44:25Z")
I have a question that I asked in another thread: by my limited understanding of this move, is this a move by whoever to use the power and force of the military and intelligence communities without input from their leaders? If so, how exactly does that work? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/6 "2017-01-30T06:50:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I have a question that I asked in another thread: by my limited understanding of this move, is this a move by whoever to use the power and force of the military and intelligence communities without input from their leaders? If so, how exactly does that work? The Joint Chiefs of Staff aren’t technically “leaders” of the military in the sense that they’re not in the chain of command. Their job is to advise the President on military matters. If Trump wants to “use the power and force of the military”, the orders go from him to the Secretary of Defense (Mattis), and from there to the appropriate “combatant commanders” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/7 "2017-01-30T06:52:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Joint Chiefs of Staff aren’t technically “leaders” of the military in the sense that they’re not in the chain of command. Their job is to advise the President on military matters. If Trump wants to “use the power and force of the military”, the orders go from him to the Secretary of Defense (Mattis), and from there to the appropriate “combatant commanders” I’m feeling like Mattis might not last long, based on this move. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/8 "2017-01-30T06:57:14Z")
Wait, so the Joint Chiefs literally have no role in the moves of the military, and all they do is tell stuff to the President and make suggestions? Huh. So what about the Director of National Intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/9 "2017-01-30T09:48:41Z")
Operational and Administrative are two different things. Joint Chiefs are the administrative heads of their respective services. They do not however, make operational decisions on use and deployment of forces, thought they certainly advise. The Chairman is a different kettle of fish, AIUI, he is statutorily not subordinate to the SecDef, he is the Presidents principle military adviser and is a Cabinet level position in its own right. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/10 "2017-01-30T10:01:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Joint Chiefs of Staff aren’t technically “leaders” of the military in the sense that they’re not in the chain of command. Their job is to advise the President on military matters. If Trump wants to “use the power and force of the military”, the orders go from him to the Secretary of Defense (Mattis), and from there to the appropriate “combatant commanders” False. Its composition includes the actual heads of each branch of the armed forces. The top of the chain of command. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/11 "2017-01-30T10:05:43Z")
I was interested in a definition of the function of the NSC. Wiki has this: > [@](#): > > Since its inception under Harry S. Truman, the function of the Council has been to advise and assist the president on national security and foreign policies. The Council also serves as the president’s principal arm for coordinating these policies among various government agencies. The Council has counterparts in the national security councils of many other nations This is interesting: > [@](#): > > On May 26, 2009, President Barack Obama merged the White House staff supporting the Homeland Security Council (HSC) and the National Security Council into one National Security Staff (NSS). The HSC and NSC each continue to exist by statute as bodies supporting the President.[2] The name of the staff organization was changed back to National Security Council Staff in 2014.[3] > > On January 29, 2017,\*\* President Donald Trump restructured the Principals Committee (a subset of the full National Security Council),\*\* assigning a permanent invitation to Steve Bannon, White House Chief Strategist, while at the same time withdrawing the permanent invitations of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Director of National Intelligence.[4] > > The decision process inside the structure has become less and less formal but influence of the Council has become stronger and stronger. Detailed history of the National Security Council under each Presidential administration since its inception can be found at: So, to draw that out: \*\* President Donald Trump restructured the Principals Committee (a subset of the full National Security Council),\*\* ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/12 "2017-01-30T11:15:39Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > …I’m horrified that this thread has two responses. > > I came to the Dope tonight to specifically get people’s input and opinions on this. It’s as scary as it sounds? Who knows of all the implications. But yes, an Executive treating his military and intelligence leadership with public contempt sounds toxic and like it will fuel something awful. Trump’s “management style” is to keep everything and everyone around him off balance, with him in the eye of the storm. And to use bullying, lies of convenience and other personal tactics to achieve this. How long can an immense set of government functions be managed that way? When will a disaster - natural, political, military - demand a government response that this toxic administration will fail to step up to? Hurricane Katrina did this during W’s administration. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/13 "2017-01-30T15:00:49Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > False. Its composition includes the actual heads of each branch of the armed forces. The top of the chain of command. The service chiefs are not the top of the chain of command in the way that most people in this thread are discussing it. If the President wants to invade Freedonia, that order does not go through the Chief of Staff of the Army, for example – it goes to the Commander of European (?) Command. The service chiefs have statutory responsibilities which, to use an imperfect summary, include the roles of organizing, training, and equipping their forces – not commanding them on the battlefield. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs has statutory responsibilities that generally pertain to the strategic posture of the U.S. Armed Forces, and sort of being like a belly-button for the combatant commands to advocate for various initiatives. But back to the main point: Trump’s order is spectacularly stupid. Even if you distrust advice from military and intelligence establishments, you’ve still got to have them at the table when big decisions are being made – and the Principals Committee of the National Security Council is THE PLACE where big national security issues are decided. It’s totally fucking bonkers to say, “Hey, we’ll invite them if we need them.” ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/14 "2017-01-30T15:36:33Z")
_Disregard_ ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/15 "2017-01-30T15:45:08Z")
To me, actions like this are the way we can see what’s happening inside the administration. Trump strikes me as the sort who likes to hear that he’s right, i.e. he prefers yes-men. If he’s pushing somebody away or demoting their importance that strikes me as an indication that they are not fully agreeing with him. I’m just not sure why else he would make this move. What alternative is there? Other than he’s stupid, but I don’t think Trump is stupid in this way and it is dangerous to simply chalk up all of his moves to stupidity. Not enough chairs in the conference room maybe??? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/16 "2017-01-30T15:45:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The service chiefs are not the top of the chain of command in the way that most people in this thread are discussing it. If the President wants to invade Freedonia, that order does not go through the Chief of Staff of the Army, for example – it goes to the Commander of European (?) Command. > > The service chiefs have statutory responsibilities which, to use an imperfect summary, include the roles of organizing, training, and equipping their forces – not commanding them on the battlefield. > > The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs has statutory responsibilities that generally pertain to the strategic posture of the U.S. Armed Forces, and sort of being like a belly-button for the combatant commands to advocate for various initiatives. > > But back to the main point: Trump’s order is spectacularly stupid. Even if you distrust advice from military and intelligence establishments, you’ve still got to have them at the table when big decisions are being made – and the Principals Committee of the National Security Council is THE PLACE where big national security issues are decided. It’s totally fucking bonkers to say, “Hey, we’ll invite them if we need them.” Word in the news this AM is that the CofJC is not being excluded, it’s just that Bannon is being included. This administration’s message is so muddled these days you don’t really know what is actually going to happen until you actually see it happen. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/17 "2017-01-30T15:57:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Word in the news this AM is that the CofJC is not being excluded, it’s just that Bannon is being included. This administration’s message is so muddled these days you don’t really know what is actually going to happen until you actually see it happen. They seem to be taking the whole ‘monkey fucking a football’ thing to new heights. Hard to believe this clusterfuck is only into it’s second week. Going to be a very long 4 years… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/18 "2017-01-30T16:09:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Word in the news this AM is that the CofJC is not being excluded, it’s just that Bannon is being included. Which itself is inexplicable. Bannon’s credentials to sit on the committee are nonexistent. The composition of the NSC has changed over the years and it’s not as big a deal as people seem to think it is to change who does or doesn’t sit in every time it meets, but why Bannon is there cannot be explained. As more than a few stories have noted, whenever the NSC (or any similar group) met with George W. Bush, Karl Rove was asked to leave the room; Bush saw it as unseemly for his counsel to be around matters of national security. When Obama met with the NSC, Valerie Jarrett found other things to do, for the same reason. The Senior Advisor being a partisan hack high on political treacherousness and low on the actual skills of statecraft is a long tradition - Jarrett and Rove both were precisely that, as was Dick Morris for Bill Clinton. It’s just tradition that your senior advisor is some weasel who’s had your back forever. But none of those people were asked to provide advice on matters of national security because that would have been exceptionally stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/19 "2017-01-30T16:25:07Z")
Wait wait wait wait wait… the Breitbart guy is now head of the NSC ?!! Jesus fucking Christ, America. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537/20 "2017-01-30T16:33:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Word in the news this AM is that the CofJC is not being excluded, it’s just that Bannon is being included. This administration’s message is so muddled these days you don’t really know what is actually going to happen until you actually see it happen. It’s not that either – traditionally, every President essentially required the Chairman and (although it is a newer position) the Director of National Intelligence to attend meetings of the NSC’s Principals Committee. Now, they are invited to join when they are needed. Or requested. Hard to tell. The presumption that these men used to have that they would be at every NSC PC meeting has instead been given to Bannon, which is cray-cray. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Wait wait wait wait wait… the Breitbart guy is now head of the NSC ?!! > > Jesus fucking Christ, America. Not the head, he’s just there. To loom over things, it seems. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-chairman-of-joint-chiefs-from-nsc-internal-strife/778537.md?page=2)