# Dropping in a little latin phrasing. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689 "2012-04-23T14:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/81 "2012-04-25T02:22:03Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I have underlined the words in your post that come either from or through Latin (in many cases via French). At some point in the language’s history, these words were NOT ENGLISH. If people can’t use words that are not English, the language will never grow. Obviously there should be a balance, but equally obviously this has been a useful and productive interlinguistic relationship for well over a thousand years, and your whining won’t stop it. They’re latinate but they’re not latin. No one is saying word drift shouldn’t happen. But I think it’s quite clear _ave atque vale_ is not ENGLISH and will never be ENGLISH at this rate. Pretending it’s somehow on the same plane as ergo or ad hoc strikes me as disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/82 "2012-04-25T02:34:24Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I suppose you’re right, I must surely be a huge hypocrite for using ‘etc’ and other common Latin phrases. > > I’m thinking more of less known things like, “Ave Atque Vale” (Please, please, please can the poster not take this personally, just the easiest example to access!).This is more the kind of Latin usage I was referring to. It seems to scream something untoward, about the speaker, to me. > > Yeah, I guess some, perhaps many, people do know this phrase. > And I accept that it is, at some level, hair splitting or nit picking. (Also a little douchie.)This is more the kind of Latin usage I was referring to. It seems to scream something untoward about the speaker to me. > > I guess it’s just me. So, it’s OK to use Latin phrases as long as you are familiar with them. If someone goes beyond that, they’re being pompous. I didn’t know what _ave atque vale_ meant, but saw it as an opportunity to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/83 "2012-04-25T02:39:40Z")
I think it’s more like how a polo is a fine and upstanding piece of clothing that is casual yet smart but if you are forced to spend too much time with frat boys, you start to loathe it regardless of who’s wearing it. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/84 "2012-04-25T02:40:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Ciao_! Is it dinner time already? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/85 "2012-04-25T03:22:50Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > They’re latinate but they’re not latin. No one is saying word drift shouldn’t happen. But I think it’s quite clear _ave atque vale_ is not ENGLISH and will never be ENGLISH at this rate. Pretending it’s somehow on the same plane as ergo or ad hoc strikes me as disingenuous. [Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ave+atque+vale?r=66) contains the phrase. While I by no means think that’s the sole arbiter of what is or isn’t English, you must agree that [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) does not contain every Latin word or phrase there is, only those which might be used in an English context. [This](http://torontoist.com/2011/08/ave_atque_vale/) 2011 article on the passing of Jack Layton uses the headline “Ave Atque Vale, Jack” unselfconsciously, without any other Latin. I’m not trying to argue that the phrase is unambiguously English as “consider” or “veto” or “et cetera.” I’m just trying to point out that (a) there’s a long history of the use of this phrase in English poetry, at least, and (b) at least some people will use it when writing in English, therefore (ergo?) (c) what is and what is not English is kind of tricky, especially when it comes to Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/86 "2012-04-25T03:36:35Z")
No argument here. I am curious now, though, about the rate at which latin phrases have been lifted wholesale into english and whether that rate has slowed, increased or maintained as one approaches the present day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/87 "2012-04-25T03:51:31Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No argument here. > > I am curious now, though, about the rate at which latin phrases have been lifted wholesale into english and whether that rate has slowed, increased or maintained as one approaches the present day. Probably slowed. There was a time when all educated people spoke Latin. Not any more. > [@](#): > > I think it’s more like how a polo is a fine and upstanding piece of clothing that is casual yet smart but if you are forced to spend too much time with frat boys, you start to loathe it regardless of who’s wearing it. You need to just remember to be here now. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/88 "2012-04-25T03:57:05Z")
I would think it has slowed as well, but I am curious if anyone has actually looked into it as opposed to gut feelings. And thank you for the zen advice? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/89 "2012-04-25T04:59:30Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think it’s more like how a polo is a fine and upstanding piece of clothing that is casual yet smart but if you are forced to spend too much time with frat boys, you start to loathe it regardless of who’s wearing it. Is there a polo/latin correlation? Hmmm… I have a friend who uses latin, math/chem geek words, and literary references that no one gets. And he doesn’t have the social feedback system to notice that we’re all shrugging our shoulders at each other as he rattles on. “Well, if you notice during \*ordinary time \*that they keep the _ciborium_ looking like an _integral sign_, it’s prolly an _ergo propter hoc_ situation, well, if _Didi and Gogo_ dealt with their situation in a _PC Load Letter_ way, of course!”(laughs uncontrollably; fails to notice our confused silence). And, come to think of it, he wears polo shirts. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/90 "2012-04-25T05:05:41Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Is there a polo/latin correlation? Only in that they’re both liable to be abused by douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/91 "2012-04-25T06:15:12Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Is there a polo/latin correlation? > > Hmmm… I have a friend who uses latin, math/chem geek words, and literary references that no one gets. And he doesn’t have the social feedback system to notice that we’re all shrugging our shoulders at each other as he rattles on. > > “Well, if you notice during \*ordinary time \*that they keep the _ciborium_ looking like an _integral sign_, it’s prolly an _ergo propter hoc_ situation, well, if _Didi and Gogo_ dealt with their situation in a _PC Load Letter_ way, of course!”(laughs uncontrollably; fails to notice our confused silence). > > And, come to think of it, he wears polo shirts. Of course, this is your fault for not dropping the conversation to research his surely brilliant references instead of him being a poor communicator. I know I _can_ google things I come across that I am unfamiliar with, message board philosophers, but that doesn’t mean I should _have to_ when you could just communicate your idea succinctly in the first place. Using a term of art that is appropriate is actually enlightening, peppering your posts with foreign terms because it “more accurately conveys the feeling of what you are trying to say” is most likely poetic fappery that I can do without. I think it boils down to what people come here for. I would like to learn about people’s ideas, not read their mastery of bits of other languages that add no information to the sentence. I can do that too, in multiple languages, but it’s asinine and would hurt my communicating with the rest of you, so I don’t. edit: BTW I took Latin enough that I can understand 99% of the non-common Latin used here on the SDMB anyway. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/92 "2012-04-25T06:22:09Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I feel ya, OP. But you’re not going to [win around here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=591835). For a lot of posters this message board is not about clear communication, but about being an faux-scholar and showing how “in” they are with the board. WMTAJWDCABU, but whatever. Before I forget and it’s lost forever, WMTAJWDCABU=Which means they are jackasses who don’t care about being understood. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/93 "2012-04-25T06:33:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ex-Pre-VII alter boy checking in. _Mea maxima culpa_. Osti, yes, you’re right. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/94 "2012-04-25T06:34:32Z")
> [@Dominimus](#): > > What’s next, teaching Latin in ESL classes? Or should we break out the clerics and start resurrecting it the old fashioned way? No, genius, in LSL. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/95 "2012-04-25T07:06:10Z")
Language is participatory. There is a burden both on the speaker (or transmitter) and listener (or recipient). There are numerous obstacles to understanding that can arrive at multiple points. Knowledge and performance errors on behalf of the speaker, low fidelity media, lack of familiarity on behalf of the listener or lack of attention leading to failure to encode information. While on the internet the burden is usually placed more towards the recipient, since finding the correct information is only a search away, an adept “conversationalist” will not increase the burden on their audience. Demonstrating one’s own knowledge may not always be the most effective way to fight ignorance, especially not if the recipient of knowledge can not guess intent based on context. Edit: _Caveat emptor_, you get what you pay for. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/96 "2012-04-25T11:37:48Z")
Latin can sound pretentious from people who (seem to) use it as an affection, but when an erudite speaker like [George W Bush regales guests with his knowledge of Virgil](http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-regales-dinner-guests-with-impromptu-oratory,1355/), the result is sublime. The deep love of the classical world shines through. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/97 "2012-04-25T12:27:20Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Latin can sound pretentious from people who (seem to) use it as an affection, but when an erudite speaker like [George W Bush regales guests with his knowledge of Virgil](http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-regales-dinner-guests-with-impromptu-oratory,1355/), the result is sublime. The deep love of the classical world shines through. I wish I could have written that. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/98 "2012-04-25T12:33:03Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > While on the internet the burden is usually placed more towards the recipient, since finding the correct information is only a search away, an adept “conversationalist” will not increase the burden on their audience. Demonstrating one’s own knowledge may not always be the most effective way to fight ignorance, especially not if the recipient of knowledge can not guess intent based on context. > > Edit: _Caveat emptor_, you get what you pay for. But conversation in a forum like this is very public. Fighting ignorance or whatever is occasionally fun, but really I use this place to try to find like-minded people. My conversation partner might not appreciate the allusiveness, but very often, it draws someone else out to join the conversation who very clearly does. Voila, a connection is made. Internet message boards exist in some weird space between private conversation and public discourse, so it leaves room to talk to unseen listeners right along with your obvious conversation partner. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/99 "2012-04-25T13:00:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What, do we need a minor government official to decide what borrowed words are acceptable, or something? > > It’s satrap! Hahaha! Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689/100 "2012-04-25T13:25:50Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > A short phrase in Swahili might be a real bon mot. The meaning of the phrase should be fairly evident from the context. Hm . . . I know I’ve heard that one before . . . looks/sounds like French, and I know that _bon_ means good. _Mot_ I’m not really sure of, but maybe it’s something like ‘word’? Because I sure can tell that your meaning is that a small phrase in another language might be a ‘useful saying’ . . . something that is worth retaining and using again in other contexts. I don’t speak French, but I’m willing to bet that I’m exactly right. And, maybe I’ll remember this for the next time I come across the phrase. Part of what makes a ‘bon mot’ (if I can incorporate that one into my vocabulary) useful is that it imparts an intentionality and importance of language. Also, they often carry subtle connotations that an English translation would loose. Sometimes that connotation is lost on the listener, but that doesn’t mean that an attempt to add layers to communication should be abandoned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dropping-in-a-little-latin-phrasing/619689.md?page=6)