And the Dutch I take it.
golfclap
Sorry, did you miss the part where I said I never use Latin tags without an English translation? (Unless, of course, they are so familiar as to be considered part of the English language.)
Well then I guess it’s fortunate that there’s hardly any French influence on English.
(Please pretend that I composed that sentence entirely out of words that entered English via Norman French. I’m way too lazy to actually do so.)
Some people have larger and more flexible vocabularies than others, and they use them. Don’t take it personally. Deal with it. Or I’ll have to go all bagronk sha pushdug on you.
Mea culpa is a beautiful phrase. By using the religious terminology–I believe it’s used in confession by Catholics, at least when they’re going old school–one can render a sincere apology (by implying genuine contrition, such as one would hopefully say to one’s priest) or a sarcastic one (by implying one is being over-the-top and mocking the listener).
Ave Atque Vale, Requiescat in Pace, and so on are lovely phrases and I’ll be damned if I’m not gonna use them just because a listener doesn’t understand it. That’s how you learn vocabulary, y’know? By hearing words or terms you don’t know and either getting it from the context, or later looking it up in a dictionary (online or otherwise). There was a time when I didn’t know these phrases either. Then, as I grew older and more well-read, mirabile dictu*, I learned them, and was glad to do so.
Maybe doing a lot of choral singing or reading British mysteries makes it easier to appreciate the language? I also admit I took Latin all through junior and senior high, thanks to my mother’s insistence that it would help me with English.
(* “It’s wonderful to say!” Basically used where you’d say “And then, hallelujah, I passed the test.” I’ll never forget Mario Cuomo’s nominating speech in the 1992 Democratic convention where he used this phrase. Not only was it hilariously used in context, it also impressed me to hear a politician not talk down to his listeners.)
What an offenderatus.
Once upon a time the burden was on the ignorant to learn enough to keep up. Now, people who know something have to second-guess everything they say to not give the appearance of being pretentious douchebags. What the hell happened?
Generally, I don’t understand these sentiments. The writer is not trying to keep you in the dark, because the context clearly implies the meaning. You assume the writer is showing off or something, but why is it so urgent that people who have invested in the life of the mind should hide their light under the bushel?
The phrase avē atque valē has resonance, used ironically in the thread you refer to. The first time I read Catullus’ farewell to his dead brother, I was stricken with a blue funk though I was sober as a grandma in church – atque in perpetuum, frāter, avē atque valē. And so for all time, brother, goodbye and farewell.
Shall we impoverish our discourse of everything that does not sparkle the mind or stir the hearts of absolutely everyone for the sake of those who would not feel so incalculable a loss? Don’t be surprised if we don’t, even on pain of you thinking so much less of us.
Beautifully stated, Johnny Angel. And may I just point out that this is one high-brow pit thread. Brings a tear to my eye, it does. The whole thing.
I’m learning Latin because I love words. I don’t sprout it when I think that people won’t understand. Today, I was listening to a book and the witch sent a Latin curse at someone. I was able to translate it to ring of fire, and the book told about flames circling the victim. That was a fist pump YES!!! moment for me.
The book I was listening to was a long way from high-brow. For anyone who cares, it was a Kim Harrison book, with witches, pixies, demons and vampires. Junk food for the mind, but it made me happy to understand.
This thread makes me want to go all Fus Ro Dah on someone!
Not in Confession as “the Sacrament”, it’s in the part of the Mass where we recognize ourselves sinners. Post-Vatican II we use the vernacular, but yeah, there’s a line in the Act of Contrition which in Latin is mea culpa, mea culpa, mea grandissima culpa. In English, and seen here in the version called “Confession of Sin”: “through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.”
Mea culpa is not the same as sorry. You can be sorry that someone got sick without it being your fault at all: mea culpa is a recognition of fault and at the same time it expresses, as choie said, the intent to “sin no more” (at least in that particular way).
All of my hatred you smug elitist bastard.
Alright, I’ll be the first to admit this was not appropriate, even by pit standards.
I apologize.
Let me rephrase:
I think the idea of not being familiar with snippets of Latin is absurd. It’s a dead language that serves very specific purposes within various fields of academia, as has been discussed (debate, law, and so forth). Asserting that one’s ignorance of those phrases qualifies as not being fluent in English is ridiculous.
What’s next, teaching Latin in ESL classes? Or should we break out the clerics and start resurrecting it the old fashioned way?
P.S.
What’s with the lack of an edit function (at least at the time of this post)? I would’ve really enjoyed not obnoxiously double-posting. Apologies for that as well…
I can understand not being understanding some of the Latin phrases in this thread (I don’t recognize the more literary ones like the one that raised the OP’s ire), but the one quoted by Steophan are well-assimilated into English. A phrase like “ad hoc” is a perfectly useful and common one that expresses a concept succinctly. It happens to come from Latin, but it’s used as a native part of English, as opposed to something like ave atque vale, which still should be setoff in italics or quotes as a foreign phrase.
Ex-Pre-VII alter boy checking in. Mea maxima culpa.
Someone named Dominimus is not comfortable with a little latin phrasing?
Did you actually read the list you were responding to?
I would assume you know the meaning of each and every one of those items, and you probably regularly use a majority of them. I would assume this because I see you speak fluent English, and they are normal English words.
Ipso facto is the only one I would think might give the average English speaker pause.
But you’re saying you don’t know those words? Or you don’t expect most English speakers to know them?
I feel ya, OP. But you’re not going to win around here. For a lot of posters this message board is not about clear communication, but about being an faux-scholar and showing how “in” they are with the board. WMTAJWDCABU, but whatever.
I can think of a lot of words in other languages that don’t have english equivelents I would like to make use of, but I don’t because being understood is more important to me than showing my worldly learn-edness off at every opportunity.
Thankx rogerbox for understanding what I was saying, and helping me to understand why it’s done so cavalier hereabouts.
I routinely interact with persons far more educated and intelligent than myself. People who speak many languages I am unfamiliar with. We routinely discuss things that, while I am unfamiliar with, can understand handily whenever we interact. Conversations are not interrupted with inquiries such as, “Is that Greek? What’s it mean?” When they throw in the perfect Mandarin phrase to describe something they take the time to ensure their listeners know it’s meaning. Seeming to recognize it’s the only way their listeners will truly be impressed with the aptness of their phrasing. And possibly recognizing to not do so, in such diverse groups of people, makes them come off as a touch douchie.
Anyway, thanks again for getting what I was saying, and I agree with you. I’d rather be understood than impress with my worldliness!