# Drowned 5 children.. Insane? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803 "2001-06-22T16:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/81 "2001-06-27T18:02:43Z")
Thirty years ago, a close friend killed herself and her new baby under PPD. She was a perfectly normal person. She didn’t home school. She didn’t belong to some kooky religion. PPD is serious business. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2001, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/82 "2001-06-28T00:06:41Z")
Nightline reported that Texas has seen PPP (not PPD\< people, there is a DIFFERENCE) used as a defense twice before. Once it resulted in a 2 year probation, another time it was aquittal. stoid ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/83 "2001-06-28T01:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, it’s not at all clear why this decision was made, and there’s an implication there that it was part of a medication switch. There are some pretty good reasons this might have occurred - Haldol is, apparently, pretty strong stuff. Unfortunately, anti-depressants can, after a time, stop working. When they do, all hell breaks loose - the person is in much, much worse shape than they would have been had they never taken anti-depressants, and haldol is stronger than average (no, no cite for this, except for my friend karri, who is a walking PDR, from personal experiance). Doctors simply switch the patient to new meds. Typically, there is a particularly bad time from when the person realizes that the meds have quite working, until the new meds can kick in. “Particularly bad” in this instance means, well, a 24 hour a day bad acid trip for a few weeks. Not pretty. minty green is, of course, correct, when he says that this is speculation and not really going to lead anywhere. Best to leave this sort of stuff to the expert witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2001, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/84 "2001-06-28T17:30:19Z")
I agree with Primaflora (I think) that she probably wasn’t suffering from PPD, but Post Partum Psychosis, which is rarer. Depressed people don’t usually kill anyone but themselves, but having a psychotic break would make one more likely to harm their children. The fact that she was on Haldol (the “chemical straight jacket”) makes me think that her condition was more severe than depression as well, at the very least they had to think she was suicidal to prescribe that to her. I think the husband should be brought up on some charges, as well, such as crimial negligence of his children. He knew she wasn’t well…This sad case makes me think of the “if onlys.” If only the older boys had been in school instead of being home schooled, they might be alive now(just not being home could have saved their lives), and perhaps their not being there would have made less presure for their mom, and maybe the littler ones would be ok too. A woman in MA was arrested yesterday for murdering her 15 month old son. It’s chilling to think that this tragedy could be turned into the new “trendy” crime like school shootings after Columbine seemed to. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2001, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/85 "2001-06-29T06:39:02Z")
Good post, Mr. Furd. You make several very good points. I canNOT understand why a woman taking prescriptions for psychosis was left alone all day, day after day, to care for five babies and children under eight. What was wrong with her husband, with her doctors, with social services? I hope your wife will be okay soon. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mort Furd \* > \*\* > > Maybe we should realize that psychotic=too dangerous to run around loose. > > On another tack: > Maybe the woman was insane at the time she killed her children, but she was criminally reckless in not getting effective treatment for her depression. She and her husband had enough awareness of her problem to seek treatment for her. Apparently, however, they weren’t concerned enough to try to relieve the pressure on her. Home schooling her children with a new born in the house? No help for her around the house (cleaning, watching the children, etc?) Is anyone going call her husband to rights for leaving her at home with five children in her condition? Is anyone going to call her doctor to order for the ineffective treatment? Her husband failed her, her doctor (or doctors) failed her, and her family failed her. > > My wife is currently going through PPD. She reached the point this last Friday that she was incapable of taking care of our two children. She is now in the hospital being treated for depression, our older daughter (three years old) is at home with me and her parents are taking care of our seven week old son. I have supported her to the extent possible for a working father - I have taken days off, stayed late in the mornings before work to help her get her day started with the children, I run all of the errands that I can, etc. Her parents are there any time she needs them (they are both retired.) They have taken the children overnight to let us rest, and also help with household tasks and grocery shopping. Her gynecologist and her regular doctor have both taken phone calls at god awful times of the night to help us deal with her problems. Her regular doctor was the one who had her brought to the hospital on Friday. He realized that her condition was not going to improve until she could be completely relieved of the demands of child care and she could be treated for her condition without having to consider how the side effects of treatment may interfere with her ability to care for the children (the anti-depressants at the dosages they are using tend to make her very sleepy and woozy, but should help her back to normal much more quickly than other medications or lower dosages.) My wife is supported by her husband, her family, and her doctors. We have not let her fall into the pit this other woman has gotten into. > > With all of that said, I have no sympathy for the woman who killed her children. Her husband, her doctors, and her family (if they lived close enough to be aware and able to do anything for her) all share responsibilty for what happened. BUT - the woman who killed her children has the final responsibilty for that act. She must answer for what she has done. > > Were my wife to do such a thing, were I to come home to find both of our beloved rugrats dead by her hand, then she would die by mine. And for that act, there would be nothing left for me but suicide. That also sums up my reaction to the “temporary insanity” defense. Were I to do something so terrible when I was “sick” and then were “cured,” then I would have to commit suicide in remorse for the things I did while sick. > > Toast this woman, or lock her up for life, but do not let her get into a position to kill again. How can you trust a person who was once insane enough to carry out the act that she did to not have another period of insanity? Bring her husband and her doctors to court for negligence. Put them away for a very long time, and especially the husband. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/86 "2001-07-04T00:40:02Z")
In Texas, we have a woman with a long history of mental illness, significant enough to require hospitalization and medication, she drowns her 5 children, and prosecutors (and many others) are talking death penalty. In [Pennsylvania](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20010703_1445.html) we have a husband and wife who set fire to their house to collect the insurance and oops, their three children and 2 children of another woman living with them die, too. Roomate (who testified against them) is doing 3 - 15 years, dad spent 3 years waiting trail and negotiating a plea agreement that let him out after those three years, mom pled guilty to a reduced charge and was released from jail. draw your own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/87 "2001-07-04T01:57:31Z")
It’s utterly amazing how this tragedy has wound up as fodder for so many obsessed ideologues of every stripe, on issues ranging from feminism to criminal justice. The bottom line is that she’s crazy until proven otherwise, even a half-witted defense lawyer (and there will be none of those in this publicity-strewn affair) could conjure up sympathy in a jury, and she will not be executed. No way. A plea bargain cometh. Sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803/88 "2001-07-05T02:19:07Z")
Lemur, there aren’t too many Black people who commit murder and get away by claiming insanity. If Colin Ferguson couldn’t, who could? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drowned-5-children-insane/69803.md?page=4)