Drug Legalization

Great Debates
21

We are forgetting some cultural history here, as well. There was a very excellent two-part series in the Atlantic Monthly, I believe sometime in '96, that delved into the whole thing.

Basically, marijuana was first criminalized because the first people smoking it regularly were Mexican migrant workers, Black jazz musicians, and sailors who brought it from foreign ports. Criminalizing their preferred intoxicant was an excuse to keep them under the thumb.

As this sentiment prevailed, newspapers even started running headlines like, “Reefer Crop Expected, Thousands of Youth in Danger.” Texas police even claimed marijuana incited a thirst for blood in criminals. We all know about the Reefer Madness movie.

Then, in the '60s, when white hippie kids started smoking marijuana and getting busted, their parents began lobbying for decriminalization. Laws were relaxed through the '70s.

Along comes the '80s, and a group of parents get pissed off when they find roaches all over the lawn of their suburban home following a party thrown by their kids. The MADD movement is getting underway, so these parents use it to help their campaign against marijuana, which they throw into the whole DRUGS category. Just Say No is born, and we begin to see criminalization back en vogue.

In the '90s we started to see “three strikes” come about, and drug laws jump on board. The War on Drugs received unprecedented cash flow. The U.S. government even used profits from the sale of crack cocaine to finance the arms supply in the Iran-Contra affair (from the now-infamous San Jose Mercury-News investigative series on the subject). Here we are today.

The Atlantic Monthly article also analyzed all of the U.S. government drug czars, and how one in particular had a morphine habit. Sen. McCarthy is even implicated as having his own habit. This is all rather consistent, if you think about it, with the U.S. attitude toward drugs. Pharmaceuticals and similar drugs preferred by a mostly upper-class population are not only legal, but supported in Congress. Intoxicants preferred by middle and lower classes are heavily criminalized. I can go to jail for smoking pot, but a pharmaceutical company that produces a pill that kills thousands of people five years down the road gets support for further research.

Perhaps a way to start the legalization effort is to form a well-funded PAC with plenty of lobbyists. As this election has well illustrated, though, real issues never matter. The important ones are often demonized and kept at a safe distance from most politicians.

22

Marijuana being “thrown” into the drug catagory? Who told you it wasn’t a drug? Or is it just youthful wishful thinking?

Any doper (not SDoper) with half a brain left will agree that pot is a drug. Is it a horrible, dangerous, addicting drug? There does the debate begin in earnest.

For myself, I can say that as an addict, I did some crime that I never would have done otherwise. Petty theft, shoplifting, vandalism. Too chicken for the really big crimes, but that was a “yet”, meaning I definetly would have gotten around to it eventually.

Believe it or not, I don’t really have an opinion on the legalization question. I got my share with no trouble (and probably your share as well), so it’s not difficult. Getting caught is the only problem, and in this day & age, you know the risk, so if you indulge, take responsibility for yourself. I wouldn’t indulge again if they were legal, any more than I would pick up right now (haven’t in a long time now).

And dead0man, most of “us” could and still can score within about 15 minutes in any city in the US, wether or not we have ever been there. Just a little extra talent you develop.

23

Of course marijuana is a drug. So is aspirin, but it shouldn’t be targeted as a Drug, as in the War on “Drugs,” any more than pot. This being my point.

24

I think the talent revolves more around picking out the other smokers than picking out dealers. Stop trying to find a bag, and start looking for someone who smokes.

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

25

Seriously, it should be hard to get good drugs, for the simple fact that the majority of people cannot control their own usage even when they have to go through extreremes to get high. I say the majority, but what I mean is the majority of long time users, long time in this scenario being maybe only a couple months ( a long time to say, snort heroin on a daily basis). I’ve seen it happen to many, even been there myself, the attitude being " I can totally control myself!" turning into " I want some more of this awesome feeling!" turning onto " Sell the effing Rolex…" and while this may sound extreme, watching this happen to a good many friend, watching homes break and buisinesses fail and lives basically ruined, has made me formulate a not very popular opinion in my community. Hard drugs are bad. They change people in a negative way.
It’s sad to say, but sometimes when a junkie friend spends the month in jail it seems to be the only time said person gets a break from the endless cycle, cop get high, cop get high, cop get high, and it gives a little extra motivation to stop. If people like this, and we are all, to a degree, succeptible to addiction, could go down to the corner and load up on a super 8-ball for next to nothing, can you say " Massive overdose potentail"? There have been nights I’m sure I would have killed myself if it was a simple matter to get more coke, or heroin, or whatever it was the dealer had that day. The fact I would have to drive to the south side and deal with scary people wired and just was too scared has probably saved my life, for what it’s worth.
Some people just love that feeling so much they are willing to do anything to get it and if any convenience store could provide that, there would be alot more abuse than there presently is. On a moral level, it’s kind of like the Pro-choice, Pro-life argument, and one could argue that the goverment has no right to say what we can put into our bodies, and I agree, but maybe I’m a hypocrite by also stating that I would never want my little girl to be around the kind of people that I used to use drugs with, even though drugs were easy to obtain and money was no object for most of us. We were morally bankrupt, and cared nothing about anything but getting fucked up as much as possible. Then we started dying, six funerals in six months, all overdoses. We did’nt rob stores, we did’nt have to. We killed ourselves in search of the bigger and better buzz, and some paid the ultimate price for that search.
People will always use drugs, and in many places it’s hard to get away from drugs even though they are illegal. If we as a culture openly embrace them, thereby telling our children it’s okay, the problem can only get worse. I agree with those saying it is easy to score, I’ve been all over this country and have yet to find even a small town where I can’t get an 8-ball after a few nights in the local bar. But this skill to easily hook up is not a right, and anyone who’s ever looked in the mirror and seen death in his own eyes would consider it a curse more than a privledge, and I would like to spare some of my weaker brothers and sisters that curse. Frankly, the fact that drugs are illegal does keep many from going down that road, and the ones who go anyways, nothing in the world will stop them from doing what they want to do until they see for themselves.
As far as the people who can succesfully use drugs on a casual basis without screwing up the lives of themselves ans thier family, I ask " Where’s the problem?" If they can casually use, they must have some reliable affordable source, they must be getting a " Good Deal", they must be feeling good, and they must be confident that thier continued use will not get them into trouble, so stop whining. Drug laws are in place to protect the weak, and as we all know, some people should just say no. Some can’t even handle thier lives sober, why make it any easier for them to get high so the rest of us not only have to deal with an idiot, but a wasted idiot?
Anyways, I’m gonna go burn one. I hope to be shredded a little, some of the things I’ve said are, gulp, slightly opinionated…

“They’ll stone you while you’re walking in the road…”
Bob Dylan

26

Seems pretty selfish to me to expect the rest of us to go to destructive lengths so that you can keep up your habit in the style you desire.

Really, I think this is the worst argument against le
galization I have ever heard. **
[/QUOTE]

If you have to go through destructive lengths, methinks you have a problem, waterboy.

27

I was actually quoting waterj2 on that last one, sorry I did’nt give him credit for what he said, still learnin’ the forum…

28

crkrrick- try to mix in a paragraph or two, PLEEEZE! I found your post almost impossible to read because of the block form.

Also, you said some things that could have packed a wallup about you & your friends and the life you led, but ended with going to light up a fattie?

Another vote for “pot is not a REAL drug.”

:rolleyes:

29

Apart from the occasional adult beverage (beer with pizza is a good example), I don’t indulge in recreational chemistry. I don’t recommend drug abuse, but then I suppose no-one really does anyway. Having said that, I believe the “War on Drugs” has been as beneficial to America as Prohibition was – in other words, I think it may be causing more problems than it solves.

As far as legalization/decriminalization is concerned, I do believe that drugs with a high toxicity should only be available under medically supervised conditions. By that, I mean drugs where the recreational dosage is not much less than the dose where health- or life-threatening effects are probable. That way, if the user overdoses or has a bad reaction, medical intervention is only seconds away.

~~Baloo

30

Come ON EJsGirl. I’ve known plenty of people who have rehabilitated from serious alcohol and/or hard drug habits by limiting themselves to smoking marijuana.

How on earth can you claim to have any experience with drug use and NOT separate marijuana from ALL other drugs?

31

I disagree, oh friendly bear. Let the chips (joints, lines) fall where they may. The user must beware, and be responcible. After all, if we talk about legalization, we’re saying ‘get the government out’, why then shoul dthey watch over us as we use these things?

(By the way, I understand your motivation completely. I just think we need to be consistant).

Legalize and regulate all drugs, tax 'em, quality controll 'em, and let the industry go where it may, similar to alcohol. Let’s be adult about it, finally.

First and foremost, put honest information out about the effects, so people who do use drugs know what to expect.

32

The freedom loving part of me doesn’t care what people do in their own homes. Heck, it’s your body. Shouldn’t you be able to inject or inhale whatever you want in to it?

But then the evil, money grubbing side of me chimes in, yeah but my tax money goes toward hauling the corpse off after some junkie gets their dosage wrong. And it’s worse if they live. Now I have to help fund medical treatments for a whole new generation of dope heads as they learn that, by golly inhaling smoke of any kind can lead to lung cancer. Yeah, but they haven’t outlawed cigerretes. Yeah, and those have helped our society so well too.

Sure users should take responsibilites for themselves. But if we’re talking about doing this America, we’re talking about the land of lawyers where nothing is any individual’s fault. Any company that steps forward to produce these new legal drugs is going to get their butt sued off by users who can now blame someone for the bad health effect (real or imagined) and their inability to operate vehicles, machinery, or walk straight without hurting themselves. And heck sue the US government too since they didn’t stop you.

Alcohol is a worse drug than marijuana? Okay, sure fine. So let’s introduce yet another substance that makes people act like idiots and insures that they can’t drive worth crap. Fine, bring in marijuana if you want, than get rid of alcohol again. I’m just asking we limit the number of legal ways to turn people into morons. I prefer we just keep alcohol since I can’t get drunk by accidently standing close to someone who is drinking.

But our war on drugs is ineffective. If I decide to become president, I won’t have manditory sentencing or other such nonsense. No jail time for non-violent drug users. I’d move the anti-drug efforts away from interdiction and into rehabilitation.

33

One of the best quotes about legalizing drugs:

“100% of drunk driving accidents involve cars, should we ban cars?” -Harry Browne (On O’Reilly mind you)

34

I have mixed feelings about this issue. It is quite a gray scale IMHO.

On one side is tobacco and marijuana – you cannot kill yourself with these drugs unless you try very hard. I once heard that the LD50 of marijuana is thought to be about 5 pounds. Granted, there are risks, and the risks should be disseminated, and the drug should be regulated (as tobacco is now). Alcohol probably fits in this category as well.

I see an analogy between this category and over-the-counter pharmaceuticals. In the USA, the FDA regulates this by potential harm to self and to society (in part). Some drugs are relatively harmless, others are more potent. Aspirin and acetaminophen are quite toxic in overdose, but no one calls for a ban on aspirin and acetaminophen.

As the “hardness” of drugs goes up, I believe there needs to be a fairly arbitrary boundary which again weighs effect on society and self. We don’t freely disseminate antibiotics in this country – it has a deleterious effect on society even though the drugs are harmless. Benzodiazepines and barbiturates have a harmful effect on self. These are not freely availible. I believe cocaine and heroin fit in the analagous category. (though I have a cousin who thinks that cocaine is less harmful than alcohol). They have immediate effects on self and society.

When pot is decriminalized, companies will start to grow high quality pot. This would be regulated by the government, and the government will tax the bejeezus out of it. This increased revenue can go towards whatever treatment pot users need (I suppose the bulk would be spent towards Doritos and Krispy Kreme) and medical treatment for any increase in lung cancer. It may someday be a money-making venture for the government.

That raises another point – does anyone know if the taxes raised from tobacco sales equal the costs spent on lung cancer/emphysema treatment from chronic tobacco use? Does anyone know if the taxes raised on alcohol sales equal the costs spent on cirrhosis/hepatic encephalopathy/portal hypertension/Mallory Weiss tears/etc/etc/etc from chronic alcohol use?

35

We’re coming, we’re coming, our brave little corps
To stamp out the use of the drugs we abhor
Don’t smoke marijuana, we don’t think you should
We can’t have our citizens feeling too good!

We never buy cocaine or downers or whites
to help us get through those long hardworking nights
We never need dealers to ask them for speed
'Cause we get prescriptions for all that we need!

If you’re a drug user you’d better turn pale
'Cause we’re going to find you and put you in jail
For you’re just a drug-using criminal sleeze - - -
And we’re alcoholics who have a disease!

(A little ditty I wrote a long time ago.
Feel free to pass it on liberally) - P.

36

Since Cliff Shaffer isn’t here, check out http://www.druglibrary.org if you want to read up on the issue.

37

Um, the opium wars resulted from the British deliberately importing opium into China against the wishes of the Chinese. It wasn’t the legalization that created the problem, it was the British forcing a country (OK, a colony) to allow the importation of an addictive substance that was not native to the culture, therefore the people didn’t know how to use it in a controlled fashion.

A similar situation was created by the trade of alcohol to the Native Americans, deliberately done in order to get them drunk and sign treaties ceding their lands to the white man…

The European-descended whites by and large were biologically and culturally more able to “hold their liquor” than the Indians.

The illegalization of drugs followed close on the heels of the repeal of Prohibition. Of course, there were a lot of law enforcement types who were going to lose their jobs if the Prohibition laws weren’t around to enforce…

38

After the opium wars opium was legalized in China. The result was cheaper more readily available opium. This led to an increase in addiction and the social pathologies that go with it. The fact that it was imposed by a foreign power does not change what happened.
<b>", it was the British forcing a country (OK, a colony) to allow the importation of an addictive substance that was not native to the culture, therefore the people didn’t know how to use it in a controlled fashion. "</b>
Are you saying that if drugs are legalized that people will learn how to use heroin and crack in a controlled fashion.
If drugs are legalized more people will use drugs, how will this be good for society.

39

From the Commentary page of this morning’s Chicago Trib, by Salim Muwakkil:

“The results of the presidential vote may be ambiguous, but one clear result of the Nov. 7 election was the electorate’s fading allegiance to the nation’s war on drugs. There were drug policy issues on the ballots of seven states, and in five of those states votors chose anti-war policies.”

Apparently Cal passed Prop 36, requiring treatment rather than jail for drug possession or use, as well as treatment not jail for parolees testing positive. Also allocates spenfding for treatment and counseling.

Nevada and Colorado made pot legal for medical use with physician’s recommendation.

Oregon and Utah restricted asset seizure by law enforcement agencies. In Massachusetts, such a proposal was defeated.

In Alaska, a prop to legalize pot was defeated.

40

puddlegum,

First, I don’t think that we will be adding too many new users, since drugs are easy enough to get now, and ‘in style’. I think some of the attraction may ware off for some people.

Second, how it would be good for society, is that much of the violence associated with the drug drade may disappear. Theft and murders are on the top of the list. That can’t be bad.