# Drug Users and SUV drivers: Do you not know or Do you not care? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523 "2003-02-03T16:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/161 "2003-02-05T02:55:35Z")
Also, how far back in the chain do you go? Should I boycott the business that advertises on a radio station that plays songs of a known drug user ? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/162 "2003-02-05T02:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > \*\*One of my biggest issues with the SUV debate is it brings up the religious fervor that many Americans feel for capitalism that I don’t share. I think that it’s a problem, I think it’s a very limited viewpoint and I’m going to point that out. Your purchase of oil AFFECTS ME. That’s all I am trying to say. Now enjoy your SUV, drive it 16 miles a day, but recognize that your choices DO affect others, and that you don’t just have the right to do something because you can. You have the right to drive an SUV because society grants that right, and I don’t think that it should be taken away from you, however it is granted by society of which is a company that I hold 1/6,000,000,000th of the stock. > Erek \*\* And remember this. I don’t live in the City, I cannot take public trasportation. I work for a small County Government. My choices effect you because I am one of the little guys that keeps this whole country running. I drive to work each day in an SUV, because it can get me there. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/163 "2003-02-05T03:19:59Z")
Frankly, why _should_ I care if some undercover cop gets shot as a result of my buying drugs? He was trying to keep me from getting them. I want that job to be as dangerous as possible. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/164 "2003-02-05T03:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by enipla \* > > * * * > > Pretty much what I was saying. > \*\* > Nope, two wrongs don’t make a right (but three left turns do :)) .If the Gov. or anti-SUV folks forced everyone into small cars that got 25 miles per gallon and had 80 HP, we **wouldn’t have made the leaps in efficiency that we have**. Consumers have created the 250 Hp V6 that gets 28 miles to the gallon. Yes, it took pressure, And that’s O.K. That’s progress. > \*\* > We are working toward changing that. So we agree. On that… > Wasteful? For some I suppose. Would you rather have everyone in the afformentioned 25mpg 80HP basic car? Or should we let needs, and wants overcome the problem? > \*\* > I’m not denying anything. You call it waste. I call it use. And I sure as hell didn’t make a YOU WASTE MORE accusation. You got that from someone else. \*\* That entire post wasn’t directed at you, just the first part. Sorry if it seemed i was going after you. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/165 "2003-02-05T03:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by enipla \* > \*\*And remember this. I don’t live in the City, I cannot take public trasportation. I work for a small County Government. > > My choices effect you because I am one of the little guys that keeps this whole country running. I drive to work each day in an SUV, because it can get me there. \*\* Hey, if you need your SUV then more power to you. If you don’t then you shouldn’t be so defensive when people ridicule you for buying a gas wasting status symbol. I certainly don’t know what people’s needs for their SUVs are or are not. And I certainly do not advocate their regulation. Well I think they should be held to higher emissions standards than they are. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/166 "2003-02-05T03:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*Frankly, why _should_ I care if some undercover cop gets shot as a result of my buying drugs? He was trying to keep me from getting them. I want that job to be as dangerous as possible. \*\* While I won’t go so far as to say that I want the undercover cop to be shot, I do equate his position with that of the drug lords he’s going after. Just because he BELIEVES in what he’s doing being right, doesn’t make it so. He’s part of the problem, not part of the solution. I feel bad for the 3 year old girl who is a victim of a drive by. I feel bad for the mother who is now single because her husband who was supporting his family by selling pot was carted off to jail. As for the drug dealers and the cops they are both soldiers in a parody of a war, if they lose their lives that’s their choice for fighting something so ridiculous. In otherwords the cops are choosing to get into that position, a position that in my opinion they shouldn’t be in, in the first place, so as Mr2001 said, it doesn’t make me feel that they are a victim, they are one of the perpetrators. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Sejal\_Traurig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Sejal\_Traurig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sejal_Traurig)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/167 "2003-02-05T03:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > **I just wish people who drive SUVs would acknowledge the negatives that an SUV has. That’s all.** Did I or did I not, in the very section of text that you quoted, make mention of the fact that my vehicle consumes more fuel than average? I’d consider that an acknowledgement of a negative that my SUV (Truck… Whatever… Its a Bronco… Its built on a modified F Series truck frame… The title calls it a station wagon…) has… There are others… Its big… A lot of the parking spaces at the grocery store are being made ever so slightly smaller. This makes it a lot tougher to get in and out of the truck when people park RIGHT on the yellow line. I’ll save that discussion for another rant, however. Its very maneuverable, though. My previous car was a Pontiac Grand Prix. That thing had a horribly wide turning radius… The Bronco could do a figure 8 inside the Prix single 360… But I digress… We are talking about disadvantages… Frankly, aside from the sheer size and cost of the vehicle, as well as dismal gas mileage, I can’t think of many. Its comfortable. Its a good runner. The 4 wheel drive system makes blizzard conditions, like today, almost seem insignificant in terms of driving it down the road. I would imagine that the “10 to 15” cars in the ditch, per the radio this morning, would liked to have said the same thing. There was even one roll over accident (NOT an SUV) that blocked all westbound traffic on the interstate not half a mile from my place of business. So, I guess it comes down to the negatives are: A: It costs me more to get in the first place than an economy car B: It costs more to operate than said car C: It doesn’t fit into parking spaces quite as nicely as I’d like. Satisfied? An SUV owner has acknowledged some negatives of owning an SUV. And knowing those disadvantages, I’d buy another, and probably will. Why? I like to be able to carry everything with me inside the truck that I need when I go camping, for example. I like to be able to get to work without calling a towtruck when there are whiteout conditions, as there were here this morning. I like to be able to see over the car in front of me to the stopped car in front of him that he didn’t see because he is too busy dialing his cell phone, reading the paper, juggling an egg McMuffin, and shaving. All things considered, my truck was a pretty good purchase… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/168 "2003-02-05T03:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > **While I won’t go so far as to say that I want the undercover cop to be shot, I do equate his position with that of the drug lords he’s going after.** Sure, I don’t _want_ them to be shot. I wish it never happened, but it’s at least as appropriate to blame the cop for putting himself in that situation as to blame drug users for fueling the black market. A cop who’s asked to infiltrate a gang of thugs can always resign and get another job if it comes to that… he won’t have to give up his livelihood, hobbies, or lifestyle to avoid a dangerous situation. However, a recreational drug user has only two choices, buy drugs from a dealer or quit, and an addict has no choice at all. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/169 "2003-02-05T04:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sejal\_Traurig \* > \*\*A: It costs me more to get in the first place than an economy car > B: It costs more to operate than said car > C: It doesn’t fit into parking spaces quite as nicely as I’d like. > \*\* Well my point of view on SUV drivers was never directed at you personally. Though I find it amusing that your idea of negatives are all personal inconveniences. Erek ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/170 "2003-02-05T04:51:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > \*\*Hey, if you need your SUV then more power to you. \*\* O.K. Thanks. But many of the anti-SUV folks think I should just move. Change my lifestyle. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you don’t then you shouldn’t be so defensive when people ridicule you for buying a gas wasting status symbol. \*\* Why should I be defensive when people call something I need a gas wasting status symbol? Oh, and you put ridicule in there as well. LOL. Didn’t know I was being laughed at too. People without knowledge or experience in the need of such a vechicle would like to to tell me what kind of vehicle to drive? Wouldn’t you be a bit defensive? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I certainly don’t know what people’s needs for their SUVs are or are not. \*\* Thanks, you just summed up why the anti-SUV group is in no position to debate this . ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/171 "2003-02-05T06:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by enipla \* > > * * * > > O.K. Thanks. But many of the anti-SUV folks think I should just move. Change my lifestyle. > > \*\* > > Why should I be defensive when people call something I need a gas wasting status symbol? Oh, and you put ridicule in there as well. LOL. Didn’t know I was being laughed at too. > > People without knowledge or experience in the need of such a vechicle would like to to tell me what kind of vehicle to drive? > > Wouldn’t you be a bit defensive? > > \*\* > > Thanks, you just summed up why the anti-SUV group is in no position to debate this > > . \*\* I am gonna have to take issue with this. The point that _I_ am making, and I’m not directing shots at anyone in particular, least of all you. Is not that no one has a need for an SUV, and not that every SUV is a status symbol, but that there is something inherently selfish and undermining about people who KNOW we fight wars over oil who KNOW that burning gas makes the air less breathable, that KNOW that the air is cleaned out by rain which then enters our water supply, who live in an area where it’s flat, and temperate and have all modern conveniences a paved road away, never take it out of the city, and live alone, yet still drive an Expedition. Basically the way I see it is, that this person, which clearly isn’t you, is doing something akin to farting in a crowded elevator. I don’t think they should be legally penalized, but I certainly think they are an asshole. And really that’s what it comes down to. This type of behavior is socially unacceptable. And in my opinion, it’s assholes like the guy I just described that give such a bad name to people who legitimately need an SUV. Erek ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/172 "2003-02-05T15:21:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\*If you are in a situation, and it appears every single drug user and dealer is in, where you know where your money goes, none if it is sent up the distribution chain, and no one is involves in violent protection of their profits, more power to you. I’ve already given out two gold stars for those wonderfully responsible drug consumers. However, I think you are kidding yourself if you think your money isn’t the main reason the illegal drug trade exists, and that very bad things happen. > \*\* > It’s not just big oil, its the carmakers and politicians who are owned by those two, as well as the people who create the demand for these vehicles. If you like, I’ll rant about everybody inthe chain too, but the fact that there are others more responsible for pollution does not absolve people from the decisions they make. \*\* You should get fitted for a tin-foil hat. So what would you do differently? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/173 "2003-02-05T15:46:22Z")
**mswas** : wow ! thanks for taking over when I went home from work and could no longer respond. you said it better than I could have ! I don’t have anything more to add, really, except: I’m sorry that SUV drivers feel like they are put on the defensive by ‘anti-SUV types’. But you know what? Tough shit. I am often put on the defensive as well, with regards to my choice of transportation (in this very thread even) as well as my consumer habits (same thread) and eating habits (vegetarian - many other threads). This is not only limited to the SDMB! If I make you feel defensive, why is it necessarily _my_ problem and not yours? If you can’t defend your choices, then, really, should you be making them - or publishing them on a thread like this ? And finally, **Tars Tarkas** , please stop saying ‘Why don’t you go criticize someone else for _their_ fuel use?’ I will point out, again, that this is not a thread about lawnmowers but a thread about SUVs. Because we are critical of SUVs in no way implies that we are not critical of other users of fuel. That’s just silly. If you see me riding my lawnmower down the street, then you are welcome to criticize, but it is completely irrelevant to bring it up here. ---
**Author:** ![Feynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@Feynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feynn)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/174 "2003-02-05T16:00:46Z")
“Sauron and Feynn you are absolutely right. There exist SUV’s that get good gas mileage, and, in a few more years, they may reduce emmissions to an acceptable level, and heck, they may reduce how dangerous they are to other drivers. I could have been clearer in the OP, so grab yourselves gold stars.” Hamlet - Thanks for the gold star, I’m gonna save it for the day when I finally trade my van in on a four wheel drive diesel Suburban. I think I’m going to put it just above the winch mount… 🙂 I’m that guy with the huge dick who actually needs a vehicle like a Suburban… wait… there’s really nothing like a Suburban. It’s going to be one of those four wheel drive diesel versions but be assured that I won’t be one of those people who has to leave their truck running for hours just because they can’t be bothered to keep the starting system in excellent condition. It wastes fuel, causes excessive pollution, and causes excessive wear on the engine. My definition of “good mileage” is different from yours. My (soon to be acquired) diesel Suburban will get about 20mpg in the city which is about what I’m getting with my Windstar right now. The Suburban will carry more people and considerably more stuff than my van does while burning the same amount of fuel. It will burn less fuel than a similarly equipped S.A.V. with a gasoline powered V8 (14mpg) and get equal mileage when it’s driven on the highway. I’m also looking for a diesel VW Golf or Jetta that I can carry in the back as a spare or for when it’s just me running around doing errands. I also understand the cons to driving a S.A.V. as it will cost more to operate, won’t accelerate like my van, and will require a greater stopping distance. But I’m not gettin one because it’s “sporty” so expect me to be drag racing it down the streets freeways. That’s what my T-bird is for… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![keithnmick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90db22/32.png) [@keithnmick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keithnmick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/175 "2003-02-05T16:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\*Because we produce proportionally more goods than other countries? Don’t be so fucking dense. SUV’s have been popular for relatively few years; the United States has been consuming the lion’s share of the oil supply for far longer. I can’t say that poor mileage cars aren’t _part_ of the problem; anyone who denies that is being disingenuous, but it’s only that, _part_ of the problem. If indeed it is a problem. Me, I think it’s merely semantics and flawed logic. I mean, if the United States _wasn’t_ the world’s largest consumer of energy resources, it’d just be someone else. Proportional to GDP, the United States does **not** consume more oil than the rest of the world. [The disproportionate energy use you claim is a myth](http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/northamerica/engecon.htm). Collect your facts first, then make your argument. This is the proper way to express an opinion. You have the generally accepted procedure backwards. \*\* - erm, Uncle Beer, I’m going to have to call you on this one. I googled and found a breakdown of energy consumption per GDP dollar per region and the US seriously lags behind the rest of the developed world: [http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw232supp.shtml](http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw232supp.shtml) Only developing nations use more energy per GDP dollar than the US, and they tend to be the regions where a lot of industrial manufacturing is based these days anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/176 "2003-02-05T17:11:49Z")
Again I must say that as an SUV owner (actually, we have two) I don’t feel the least bit defensive or guilty about it. I love my cars and if you don’t, then don’t buy one. As for the comment earlier about libertarianism being a bullshit ideology, wow. No kidding? PS- I’m not a libertarian, and I don’t think **Airman Doors** is either. And we (the SUV-drivin’ assholes) know exactly how much gas we use! And it must be OK with us, because we’re still doing it! ---
**Author:** ![Feynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@Feynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feynn)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/177 "2003-02-05T17:15:28Z")
And here is the reason I shouldn’t post before that first cup of coffee… “But I’m not gettin one because it’s “sporty” so expect me to be drag racing it down the streets freeways.” should be… But I’m not gettin **g** one because it’s “sporty” so **don’t** expect me to be drag racing it down the streets **and** freeways. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/178 "2003-02-05T19:17:32Z")
**Beeblebrox** , I’ve only had a little time to devote to your request for citations and authorities, but here’s what I’ve got: In regards to the illicit drug trade resulting in violent crimes, I had to focus only on homicides and ignore any lesser crimes. I started with[this report](http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/pdf/ncj181056.pdf). It outlines the number of drug related homicides that occur in the United States. Table 4 of the report shows that in 1994, there were 1,450 people killed in drug related homicides. By 1998 that number was cut down to 795. The discussion in the report after Table 4, indicates that the term “drug related homicides” includes both murders that occur directly during a felony narcotics offense and those that are brawls fueled by narcotics usage. It also does not include homicides committed by users attempting to get money for drugs. It also does not include homicides where the motive was drug trade related, unless they are specifically committed during a narcotics offense, which eliminates many of the gang related murders that are committed over drug turf. The report indicates, it is difficult to determine exactly how many murders are committed in the illicit drug trade, however, these findings were noted for their **under** reporting of murders in the drug trade. In total, 676 murders occurring during a felony narcotics offense in 1998 (4.8 % of 14,088), which is the LOWEST in the decade. 676 dead bodies that are directly attributable to the drug trade. [This report](http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/sph-old/cvrp/proj_DrgRelHom.htm) indicates that in their review of homicides that occurred in New York in 1991, and found that over half of them “were drug related, often associated with drug market transactions.” While getting you these cites, I was struck by the irony that the more violent I show the drug trade is, the more ammo I give to those who argue for legalization. I found [this NORML report](http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/summaryo.html) which discusses a book which looked at murders over an 8 month period in New York, and found 6 of them were the sole responsibility of the illegal marijuana business. Although the marijuana trade is a small percentage of homicides, that is still 6 people dead in just 8 months. The study is also cited [here](http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/juvcrm/jj4new/g4.html). If you’d like a more personal face on the violence inherent in the illegal sale of drugs, you can check these out. These problems are not only in the big cities and cocaine either. [Chris McCulloch, 13, Blaine Talmo, 14, of Glendale, and Nicholas Markowitz](http://www.nctimes.net/news/082200/jj.html), were all killed over drug debts. [A Southern Illlinois University student](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring01/04-11-01/thomas.html) was killed overr his marijuana dealing debt. You also have [Kevin Mills](http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/38893.php) in Madison, Wisconsin. These are just a brief glimpse. As far as large scale marijuana trafficking goes, the [The Dea created this report, which I referred to earlier.]([http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/intel/99025/99025.html](http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/intel/99025/99025.html) Mexican marijuana.) Here’s just a brief introduction into the people who supply and transport marijuana: [the Sonora organization](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/mexico/etc/caro.html), the [and the A-F organization.](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/business/afo/) There is also [this paper](http://www.customscorruption.com/mexican_cartels_integr.htm) which is another small introduction. If you’re interested, I’m sure you can google these people and see for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/179 "2003-02-05T19:19:58Z")
You had also asked for an example of LSD trafficking resulting in the death of police officers. I had a hard time finding examples that I could link to, but there was [this case](http://www.aele.org/ramirez.html), where they stated: > [@](#): > > In September 1992, officers served a knock and announce search warrant on a person suspected of selling LSD. The subject “had very little in the way of criminal history. His background did not indicate he was a violent person.” After knocking and announcing their presence and entering the apartment, they found the subject in a bedroom. Before the police could even open the bedroom door, the subject fired five shots from a revolver, hitting a police officer in the head. Only the fact that the officer was wearing a Kevlar helmet saved his life. Documented by letter of Lt. Ron Merideth, El Centro Police Department, El Centro, California, dated July 9, 1997, to the Calibre Press Street Survival Newsline. I’m more than happy that the officer wasn’t actually killed, even if it doesn’t fit the exact wording of what you wanted. You can also check out, State v. McCombs ,253 S.E.2d 906 N.C., 1979, which has this fact situation: > [@](#): > > The State offered evidence tending to show that on 29 April 1976 at approximately 9:20 p. m. Larry D. Bullock and four other officers of the City of Durham’s Narcotics Squad armed with a search warrant proceeded to Apartment L-5 at 410 Pilot Street in Durham for the purpose of searching that apartment for marijuana. The officers were operating unmarked automobiles and were dressed in blue jeans and denim jackets. After Officer Bullock knocked on the door of the apartment, defendant came to the front window, raised a sheet which was hanging over the window and looked toward Officer Bullock. He dropped the sheet, and the officers immediately heard running steps. Some ten or fifteen seconds later the officers called out, “Police officers, search warrant.” Upon hearing no response, Bullock kicked the door open, and the officers again identified themselves as policemen with a search warrant. Officer Bullock proceeded through the living room to a hallway, where defendant, who was standing in the doorway to his bedroom or in the hallway, shot and fatally wounded him. The apartment was searched and LSD as well as marijuana were found. There is also U.S. v. Thurmond 29 M.J. 709 ACMR,1989, where a military officer was arrested and incarcerated after he had attempted to have a confidential informant to whom he had sold LSD killed. And [this site](http://www.ci.sanmateo.ca.us/dept/police/history.html) which reads: > [@](#): > > On May 23rd, 1968, Sergeant Gordon R. Joinville was shot and killed by Zachery Ford Lilliard. He is the only San Mateo officer to have been killed in the line of duty. Sgt. Joinville was 34 years old and a 12-year police veteran at the time of his death. He left behind a wife, Margaret, and two small children. Sgt. Joinville was investigating the theft of a large quantity of a chemical used in the manufacture of LSD. His investigation led him to his ill-fated meeting with Lilliard at 5th & Claremont. During Sgt. Joinville’s encounter with Lilliard, there was a county wide alert because of an armed robbery and radio traffic was very heavy. Sgt. Joinville asked dispatch to run a computer check. He was asked to “stand by.” That was Sgt. Joinville’s last radio transmission. Lilliard shot Sgt. Joinville twice and then fled the scene. There are your citations for the proposition that the illicit drug trade is rife with violence and murder, and they are just scratching the surface. Anyone who remains to be interested can check out the [DEA list of agents killed in the line of duty](http://www.deamemorial.org/agent.html) Some of them were murdered while investigating marijuana dealing. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523/180 "2003-02-05T19:32:00Z")
And, just in case you are afraid I’m making this too much into a debate, here’s some vitrol for some of you: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by EJSGIRL_PS- reading Hamlet’s comment about the “ravishes” of drug use cracked me up! A Freudian slip if I’ve ever read one! (It’s “ravages”, BTW). I’m glad a typographical error about an extremely troubling part of my life can fill you with such glee. It is with great joy too, that I tell you to go fuck yourself with a chainsaw. And **WorldEater** , I’ve already said: “stop with the drive-by insults and post something intelligent about them.” and you come back with another inane one-liner with no actual content and never respond to the points I made. So, you too, can go fuck yourself with a chainsaw. A rusty one too. And I look forward to your nexxt oh-so-intelligent response. Maybe you could go with “They let you have a computer in the asylum.” or “You make Jack Chick appear sane,” or some other idiotic insult with no basis in fact. Rest assured though, I’m done with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drug-users-and-suv-drivers-do-you-not-know-or-do-you-not-care/152523.md?page=10)