# Drugs are bad ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191 "2004-08-24T01:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/21 "2004-08-24T21:10:01Z")
> [@firsttimecaller](#): > > Interesting stuff, **Gyan.** > Is everyone aware that MDMA’s sordid history began as a marriage counseling drug? (Source: The Little Book of Ecstasy, Thomas, 2003) I love pharmacology. Incorrect according to the sources I have. When does that book say MDMA was used in marriage counseling? What sources I have indicate that was happening in the 1980s. However, according to: [http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma\_timeline.php3](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_timeline.php3) There is a published report of MDMA abuse as early as 1970, and A. Shulgin mentions in PiHKAL taking it himself recreationally, and he introduced it to other who took it that way in the late 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![firsttimecaller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@firsttimecaller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firsttimecaller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/22 "2004-08-24T21:14:03Z")
P.S. **Gyan,** it kinda sucks that your thread just died there. I must have missed that one, or I would have stopped lurking a while ago. I’m no neuroscience grad. student (yet), but I love this stuff. FWIW, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence right now supports the MDMA-as-neurotoxin theory. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that the term “brain damage” gets thrown around so often and is so frightening to some that it kind of loses its meaning after awhile. As your cite points out, (and as mine does), there seem to be some long-term (if not permanent) changes occuring in the brain, but whether that’s really ultimately detrimental is uncertain. A couple more quotes (this time a little more pertinent to the discussion) before I close this one out– > [@](#): > > Because studies of axonal transport and VMAT2 changes have provided strong evidence of MDMA-induced axonal damage, it appears that serotonergic down regulation can no longer fully explain the long-term effects of MDMA. Structural changes to serotonergic axons must also be explained. Although we are not aware that this hypothesis has been advanced, one could argue that loss of axons represents a non-neurotoxic form of neuroplasticity, or benign change in the nerve cell in response to drugs. Non-neurotoxic (though not necessarily beneficial) morphological changes can occur in the CNS as the result of alterations in serotonin levels (reviewed in Azmitia 1999). **It appears more likely, however, that these changes are, in fact, the result of damage, specifically damage involving oxidative stress.** First, an explanation of “oxidative stress”– > [@](#): > > Free radicals are highly reactive chemicals that contain one or more unpaired electrons and exist separately. Free radicals can damage neural molecules through reactions called reduction and oxidation, and thereby alter the ability of these molecules to carry out their normal cellular function. Neurotoxic regimens of MDMA increase oxidative stress in the brain. In this chapter, the term “oxidative stress” will be used to refer to both the increase in reactive chemicals, including free radicals, and the burden they place on cellular functioning. Followed by the evidence– > [@](#): > > There is strong evidence that oxidative stress is involved in the mechanisms of MDMA neurotoxicity. Antioxidants are substances which inactivate free radicals; the antioxidants ascorbate and cysteine each reduce MDMA neurotoxicity in rats without altering levels of MDMA or MDMA-stimulated dopamine release (Gudelsky 1996; Schmidt, 1990). The free radical scavenger N-tert-butyl-alpha-phenylnitrone decreases both MDMA-induced hydroxyl formation and MDMA neurotoxicity in rats; this latter effect, however, may be partially due to an attenuation of MDMA-induced high body temperature, or hyperthermia (Che, 1995; Colado, 1998; 1995; Yeh 1999). Pretreatment with the antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid blocks both MDMA-induced serotonergic neurotoxicity and increased GFAP expression in the rat hippocampus without altering MDMA-induced hyperthermia (Aguirre, 1999). Mice that have been genetically altered to have large amounts of the human antioxidant enzyme, copper/zinc superoxide dismutase, are protected from MDMA-induced dopamine depletions, probably because of the increased trapping of superoxide radicals (Cadet, 1994; Cadet,1995; Jayanthi, 1999). At the same time, these genetically modified mice are protected from the acute inactivation of antioxidant enzymes and free radical changes seen in normal mice after a neurotoxic MDMA regimen (Jayanthi, 1999). **Gyan,** if I’m reading your cite correctly (and God knows I’m probably not), it seems the researchers there suspected serotonergic downregulation as the major culprit in the so-called neurotoxic effect of MDMA. Perhaps the real problem lies in the “oxidative stress” introduced by the drug. Additionally, it seems the researchers you cited questioned whether axonal deterioration was occurring at all. As for what criteria is best suited for measuring this phenomenon I confess I am a bit out of my league–my understanding of the process is too rudimentary to really comment in a knowledgeable fashion. Perhaps the best way of going about this is to look for behavioral changes– > [@](#): > > Dafters (1998) demonstrated that MDMA-exposed animals have a lasting thermoregulatory impairment. Fourteen weeks after exposure to a neurotoxic MDMA or placebo regimen, rats were placed in a warm environment. MDMA-exposed rats had significantly larger increases in core temperature than control rats. It has been known for many years that individuals who experience heat stroke have increased susceptibility to subsequent episodes for some time (Shapiro, 1979) and it appears possible that the same phenomenon is being detected here. > > Another study has suggested that neurotoxic MDMA exposure may cause cognitive impairment in rats. Marston (1999) detected drug-free alterations in performance of a delayed memory task. In contrast, Ricaurte (1993) and Robinson (1993) were unable to demonstrate any long-term effect of MDMA neurotoxicity on spatial navigation memory tasks in rats. However, Robinson did detect short-term residual effects of MDMA on this task when animals were tested 2 days after the last MDMA exposure. Jesus. What happened to the days we could all point at a rotted out hippocampus and say, “Yep. That thar’s some Brain Damage.” Now we’re doing it on a neuron-to-neuron basis. Crazy. ---
**Author:** ![alimarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@alimarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alimarx)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/23 "2004-08-24T21:17:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well… I’ve nothing against drugs, but I think I’ll avoid the more ingestable types until I can get a perscription for them from my doctor and pick them up at a pharmacy. Taking powerful substances without being sure what’s in them, where they come from and what they can do to me seems kind of silly. I wouldn’t take antibiotics without a checkup first, either. And even then I’d be weary. I regret to this day certain prescriptions given me by a doctor 20 years ago… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/24 "2004-08-24T21:22:40Z")
Is this the same stuff we used to call “MDA?” Without the extra “M”? What’s the difference? (As to the OP…casual use of anything is usually not bad or dangerous). ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/25 "2004-08-24T21:27:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Is this the same stuff we used to call “MDA?” Without the extra “M”? What’s the difference? > > (As to the OP…casual use of anything is usually not bad or dangerous). MDMA: [http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma\_timeline.php3](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_timeline.php3) MDA: [http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mda/mda\_timeline.php3](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mda/mda_timeline.php3) ``` They are chemically related, and share certain psychoactive properties. However, they are 2 different drugs. ``` ---
**Author:** ![firsttimecaller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@firsttimecaller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firsttimecaller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/26 "2004-08-24T21:29:10Z")
[QUOTE=rfgdxm] Incorrect according to the sources I have. When does that book say MDMA was used in marriage counseling? What sources I have indicate that was happening in the 1980s. [QUOTE] Well shit, I misremembered the timeline. Here’s what I’ve got– [ol] [li]Synthesized in 1910[/li][li]Patented by Merck in 1914[/li][li]Drug languishes until 1939, when it’s used as an experimental substance in animals[/li][li]CIA runs clandestine tests in 1953-54.[/li][li]Shulgin and Greer report success with MDMA as, among other things, an entactogen (making it potentially useful as a drug for marriage counseling) (1984?)[/li][li]DEA ruthlessly and predictably shoots down MDMA as a therapeutic, puts it on US CSA Schedule I list in 1986[/li][/ol] …I feel stupid… ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/27 "2004-08-24T21:38:05Z")
> [@firsttimecaller](#): > > Perhaps the real problem lies in the “oxidative stress” introduced by the drug. Most probably. I remember reading about a speculation on the mechanism of MDMA neurotoxicity. It went like this: MDMA triggers massive serotonin release and some dopamine release. The **dopamine** manages to enter the serotonin neurons, reacts with MAO where the byproduct is hydrogen peroxide which ultimately destroys the axon. That source also claimed that taking SSRI (especially Prozac) within six hours of MDMA consumption eliminated (or perhaps just reduced) the damage. This is just a rough recollection. I’ll look around for the source. **Kalhoun** In addendum to what rfgdxm, I remember reading that while scheduling MDMA, the DEA [cited](http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/dll/mdma_scheduling_history.htm) MDA to “demonstrate” MDMA’s harm. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/28 "2004-08-24T21:45:19Z")
> [@firsttimecaller](#): > > Well shit, I misremembered the timeline. Here’s what I’ve got– > [ol] > [li]Synthesized in 1910[/li][li]Patented by Merck in 1914[/li][li]Drug languishes until 1939, when it’s used as an experimental substance in animals[/li][li]CIA runs clandestine tests in 1953-54.[/li][li]Shulgin and Greer report success with MDMA as, among other things, an entactogen (making it potentially useful as a drug for marriage counseling) (1984?)[/li][li]DEA ruthlessly and predictably shoots down MDMA as a therapeutic, puts it on US CSA Schedule I list in 1986[/li][/ol] > …I feel stupid… You really shouldn’t. Look at that Erowid timeline. Between 1977 and 1985 there was a measly 8 mentions of people ending up in the ER from MDMA abuse according to the Drug Abuse Warning Network data. While MDMA as a drug of abuse was known and used before the DEA put it in Schedule I, for all practical purposes it was an extremely obscure one. Thus, that you were unaware of this is unsurprising. However, note the use of MDMA as a marriage counseling drug pretty much was quack psychiatry. What these psychiatrists were doing is using what basically was a research chemical on human beings who were acting as guinea pigs. There was little toxicity data available at that point to justify administering it to humans for such a dubious purpose as an aid in marriage counseling. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/29 "2004-08-24T21:45:30Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > I had a friend who did a lot of the stuff. He was a normal, intelligent and mentally strong individual. After about a year he had turned into a wishy-washy poofter. He couldn’t have clear thoughts or make any decisions, his life kinda went down the tubes, and just revolved around “feeling good”. > > I’m not saying you shouldn’t do X again. It’s a lot of fun! > But you wanted some reasons why you shouldn’t do it, and this is what I have to offer. I thought this thread was supposed to be about X. From what you said it sounds like you could be talking about dating (and then normally-inevitable termination of said relationship…). -Joe, X, ex, unintentional cleverness everywhere! ---
**Author:** ![firsttimecaller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@firsttimecaller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firsttimecaller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/30 "2004-08-24T21:53:28Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > However, note the use of MDMA as a marriage counseling drug pretty much was quack psychiatry. What these psychiatrists were doing is using what basically was a research chemical on human beings who were acting as guinea pigs. There was little toxicity data available at that point to justify administering it to humans for such a dubious purpose as an aid in marriage counseling. [And the trend continues to this very day.](http://maps.org/) _Rolling Stone_ did an article on these guys in April of 2001 I believe. Kind of interesting. I do wish our DEA wasn’t so reactionary. Marijuana and MDMA deserve another look. Never gonna happen though. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/31 "2004-08-24T22:10:12Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > There was an anti-drug episode of South Park that delivered this POV that’s oddly overlooked in many legalization debates. It’s not about physical harm, its about productivity. The parents didn’t want Stan smoking marijuana because it would make him too content, and thus lazy. No, you’re missing the point made by Mr Marsh. It’s not about productivity. He’s concerned that smoking pot will make Stan content and lazy and that as a result he will never find real activities that make him truly happy. And lets be honest, pot does have a pretty demotivating effect on people. I guess you could always take some coke or speed or something if you want to stay up until 4:00am cleaning your appartment. Productivity is a valid point though. If you can’t hold a job because you’d rather get high all day, the rest of us FUCTIONING alchoholics/drug adicts have to pick up your slack. There’s a lot of disinformation on both sides of the fense. Anti drug people would have you believe that one hit of the Chronic will make you insane and lust after white women while pro-drug people will ahve you believe it’s a harmless life-altering experience, man. There are valid reasons for not taking drugs: -they can fuck your shit up -a drug habit is expensive -it often requires getting involved with a dangerous element of society to acquire them -they can become physically/mentally addicting -they are, in fact, illegal and you might not want to get hassled by the cops -they can make you do stuff that you will regret doing the next day and there are valid reasons for taking drugs: -it makes things like parties, raves and other activities more fun -it seems cool (lets face it, no one gets into drugs because they think it will make them dorkier) -they can make you do stuff that you will regret doing the next day ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/32 "2004-08-24T22:13:15Z")
> [@firsttimecaller](#): > > [And the trend continues to this very day.](http://maps.org/) _Rolling Stone_ did an article on these guys in April of 2001 I believe. Kind of interesting. I do wish our DEA wasn’t so reactionary. Marijuana and MDMA deserve another look. Never gonna happen though. > **[Page Not Found - MAPS](https://maps.org/missing-page)** > > Founded in 1986, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit research and educational organization that develops medical, legal, and cultural contexts for people to benefit from the careful uses of... MDMA in fact has currently been approved for use in a research study as a psychotherapeutic aid in treating PTSD patients. They have even obtained funding for this study. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/33 "2004-08-26T07:15:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No, you’re missing the point made by Mr Marsh. It’s not about productivity. He’s concerned that smoking pot will make Stan content and lazy and that as a result he will never find real activities that make him truly happy. And lets be honest, pot does have a pretty demotivating effect on people. Bullpuckey. I’m too tired to get out the pile o’ books I used as research material when I wrote my term paper on the subject, but there are studies that have largely proven the amotivational syndrome to be myth. Interestingly, the symptoms of “amotivational syndrome” are pretty much identical to the symptoms of depression, and unmotivated potheads are more than likely self-medicating. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191/34 "2004-08-27T03:06:25Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] If you can’t hold a job because you’d rather get high all day, the rest of us FUCTIONING alchoholics/drug adicts have to pick up your slack./QUOTE] Two typos aside, this would make a great sig line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drugs-are-bad/261191.md?page=1)