# Drunk man negligent to his children, they freeze to death and he gets off easy \[RO\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310 "2009-01-08T00:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/21 "2009-01-08T07:14:29Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Still, always sad to read about kids freezing to death. ☹ It’s fucking lousy. I can read either story, and even follow the sequence of events. But the series of decisions involved that lead to children in normal set of circumstances\* dying of hypothermia is just so hard for me to accept that I cannot grok what happened. At least the OP’s situation has drink involved - I can accept that people do dumbfuck shit while drunk, or stoned. I’m not as convinced of the the value for mitigation from that circumstance, but I can accept it happens. The one where the father sent his two pre-teen kids to walk ten miles through a snowstorm just completely gobsmacks me. \*As opposed to a disaster ssituation, such as a major fire, car accident, or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/22 "2009-01-08T15:30:30Z")
**OtakaLoki** , that’s my local paper. It’s a big story here. I don’t know any of the people involved but I know that road. There is fucking _nothing_ out there. ☹ I hope that bastard never sees daylight again. ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/23 "2009-01-08T15:31:13Z")
I had to stop watching the news while this was new - it just breaks my heart. They were in tshirts and diapers, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/24 "2009-01-08T16:13:37Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Governmental paternalism based on race, however, has had hugely detrimental effects on aboriginal communities. The single greatest example of this is the residential school issue. For several generations, aboriginals from northern reserves were taken from their parents and placed in boarding schools, where they were then raised to live as if they were white men. The result was that the parents, stripped of their children, often **fell heavily on the bottle**. The children, upon finishing school and returning to their reserves, often had little memory of their families, no understanding of their own culture, and most disturbingly, absolutely no comprehension of normal family life. They too, often **fell on the bottle**. That paternalism based on race, however well intentioned it may have been, resulted in severely dysfunctional communities. Bolding mine… I not sure why that is an excuse to become a raging alcoholic, to the point where you let your children freeze to death, or be terribly violent, or any other stupid thing. Many, many people have lost children, due to death, a bad divorce, or any number of things. Most of them do not become raging alcoholics. Why the pass for aboriginals? While I generally support the idea of public shame to promote good decision making, I think it is lousy that the sentencing circle will give him a lighter sentence. Might it be more effective to sit this guy in front of the sentencing circle, publicly shame him, then jail him for the rest of his life? Would that maybe teach other tribe members that they have to control themselves? I watched the _30 Days_ episode that explored life on an American reservation, and it had the standard “Oh the poor Natives!” vibe that seems to permeate discussions about the issues on reservations. While there were a lot of good points, and the government screwed these people a long time ago, it still seemed dumb to me. No matter how important my culture, my land, whatever, if my circumstances were such that my alcoholism were putting my children in danger, I’d move off the reservation, to where there are jobs and education and everything else. To jeopardize my children in order to preserve my “heritage” - that’s stupidly selfish and immoral. At some point, isn’t someone going to require that they (or anyone, of any race) get their shit together? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/25 "2009-01-08T16:19:59Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Maybe the smaller sentence, if it could be proven that he was drunk when she left the kids with him. Their deaths are still his primary responsibility. > > Geez, maybe alcohol is such a big problem up there because of all the fucking racists. Yes, that’s it, I’m a racist because I’m opposed to institutional racism. There is probably no more damaging and openly racist policy among Western democracies than Canada’s treatment of natives. I am opposed to that, so I am a racist. Riiiiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/26 "2009-01-08T16:38:00Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Now here’s the question: is having one law for aboriginals and a different law for non-aboriginals yet another example of governmental paternalism based on race, or is it an effective mechanism for dealing with extraordinary circumstances by promoting community self-determination? To my mind (just thinking out loud here) the problem is this: 1. The traditional Native Canadian life-ways gave the people their meaning and dignity. 2. The traditional Native Canadian way of life is not really compatible with modern society. 3. Modern society is not going away any time soon. 4. In the past, the “solution” was forced assimilation - as in the Residence Schools. This was not good. 5. Now, we as a society have adopted the position that natives are to be supported in their traditional ways on their traditional lands: see point 1. 6. But this doesn’t work either (see points 2 and 3). What we get is not Native Canadians living a traditional life, but rather a bunch of very isolated slums with the inhabitants on welfare. 7. These people behave much like people stripped of feelings of self-worth and dignity, living in slums and on welfare always behave - badly. Drinking, drugging, crime and abuse are rampant. 8. Various programs such as “sentencing circles” and the like are designed to ameliorate the harshness of the results. Ditto with increased welfare and spending on cultural pursuits. 9. However, letting abusive alcoholoics out of jail and paying people to do their ethnic dance or whatever do nothing to resolve the root of the problem - the collective loss of self-worth and dignity that go with the loss of a whole way of life. Myself, I do not know what solution for this problem can be found; all I can say is that the well-meaning attempts to keep these people in stasis are not having a good effect. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/27 "2009-01-08T16:54:45Z")
Thanks for the info Muffin, not to excuse this man’s actions but simply to shed a little light. It’s worth noting that residential schools for aboriginals existed well into the '60s and '70s, with the last one being closed in 1998. Also, that by all accounts these schools were rife with abuse, psychological, physical and sexual. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/28 "2009-01-08T17:04:29Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Five years is a long time. That’s as long as someone spends in high school. Well, only if they’re dedicated to getting a quality education. **Muffin** –great post to find in the Pit–it sings SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/29 "2009-01-08T17:05:28Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > It doesn’t seem unreasonable that if he sobered up, he’d be a different and more responsible person. Seems kind of harsh to fully blame a guy for what he does while he’s nearly blackout drunk. Oh that’s brilliant. Drunk drivers should use your logic in court. “No really, I’m a totally different and responsible person when I’m sober. Seems kind of harsh to blame me for what I do when I’m drunk.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/30 "2009-01-08T17:12:52Z")
I also want to thank **Muffin** for his post; it sheds a lot of light on this concept of “sentencing circles”, especially given that he’s working in the justice community in Northern Ontario and probably interacted with native defendants before. I’m not opposed to the idea – I find that natives governing their own society is certainly better than having them governed by people who aren’t aware of their culture and specific problems – but I can see how some people could think that justice wasn’t served here. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/31 "2009-01-08T17:29:19Z")
It’s interesting to see the outrage that flows directly from a few sentences about a person’s actions and see ready-made judgements handed down by people comfortable in a (in the grand scheme of things) decent life. I myself have nothing to complain about life-wise, but I do recognize that despite how dumb it may seem to some people, it’s almost inconceivable what life is like for the native peoples of North America. The plight of the First Nations people here is unlike just about any other people in history. They were decimated to near extinction, driven to the perimeters, hedged in and controlled. They had their way of life, their dignity, their very basic human rights completely stripped away. Since then they’ve been ostracised, segregated, abused and neglected by successive administrations in both the US and Canada. And now they live on the fringe, denied the basics of opportunity and future prospects that even the least of us non-Native people takes for granted. Really, I’m not exaggerating. There’s plenty of Aboriginal communities in Canada that don’t have clean water. Or even running water at all, even if it is undrinkable. There was an entire community from the coast of northern Ontario that was moved down to Ottawa (capital city) because their water was hazardous and their community was unlivable. They often live in mold-infested filthy homes, in communities in the worst parts of this already freezing country, and while some communities have access to resources on their lands, many more don’t and live in extreme poverty. On top of that, so many Aboriginal communites face serious problems with corrupt officials, both from outside and within the community. This is the shit they put up with, everywhere they are. They live awful lives, all over this country (and in the US). On top of that, they experience extreme racism, everywhere they go. Really, if you ever get to listen to cops in particular in the western part of this country you will see the opinion towards Aboriginals. Is it their fault? Is it the cops? Is it the government? Does it fucking matter? The truth is the Aboriginal peoples have been dealt such a shitty hand that they suffer from generations of sickness. Real solutions to this issue won’t come from sentencing a drunk idiot to years in jail out of a sense of vengeance, or condemning people for having mental problems and not sucking it up and, as **Sateryn76** says: > [@](#): > > move off the reservation, to where there are jobs and education and everything else as if it is that easy. The whole system is sick, and needs to be repaired, because the guy from this story is just a symptom of a much, much, much greater problem that hurts so many people in both our countries. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/32 "2009-01-08T17:35:27Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Well, according to this [older article](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080130.wsaskgirl0130/BNStory/National), he got drunk first and then started to fight with his wife. His wife left because of the fight, leaving him alone with the kids. So he was already drunk and then left alone with the kids. Maybe he thought he was in no condition to take care of the kids so he tried to take them to his sister’s home. He was drunk, realized it, tried to do the right thing, but couldn’t because he was drunk. A drunk guy poorly handled a situation dumped upon him. > > If that’s the case, which that article seems to say it is, then I have a hard time putting this guy in jail for years. Give him a suspended sentence with a condition that he needs to seek treatment for his alcohol abuse and remain under the legal limit for 3 years. Buddy already lost his kids, sending him to jail isn’t going to do anything. Cock. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/33 "2009-01-08T17:37:07Z")
> [@scule](#): > > as **Sateryn76** says: > > "move off the reservation… > > as if it is that easy. The whole system is sick, and needs to be repaired, because the guy from this story is just a symptom of a much, much, much greater problem that hurts so many people in both our countries. Why, exactly, is it not that easy? Or, at least, why is it any harder for them, as opposed to dozens of other ethnic minorities that have worked past generational racism to say, become president of the US? And how does any of that excuse a drunk leaving his two kids to freeze to death? It is very easy to hide behind a legitimate argument about history and economics, but in real life, it helps nothing. You speak of repairs, do you have any specifics? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/34 "2009-01-08T17:43:24Z")
> [@scule](#): > > The plight of the First Nations people here is unlike just about any other people in history. They were decimated to near extinction, driven to the perimeters, hedged in and controlled. Underlining mine- that word doesn’t mean what you think it means. Sorry- it’s a pet peeve. **Muffin** , thank you for your informative post. I can absolutely see the logic in that system. Having said that, and as one alcoholic reading about another, I would hope to see the bastard in jail for the rest of his life. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, drunk or sober. I have a friend who did hard time after killing her son while driving drunk. I see no reason why this man shouldn’t also go to prison. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/35 "2009-01-08T17:46:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh fuck you. > [@Swallowed my Cellphone](#): > > Cock Thank you people for your scintillating additions to the conversation. I suggest you go and read **Muffin** ’s comments above to see what the SDMB should be like. Just because you CAN act like an ass in the pit, does not mean you MUST. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/36 "2009-01-08T17:49:11Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Why, exactly, is it not that easy? Or, at least, why is it any harder for them, as opposed to dozens of other ethnic minorities that have worked past generational racism to say, become president of the US? > > And how does any of that excuse a drunk leaving his two kids to freeze to death? It is very easy is hide behind a legitimate argument about history and economics, but in real life, it helps nothing. You speak of repairs, do you have any specifics? Never said it excuses his actions, but there is a subtle undercurrent in this thread from a certain perspective of outrage against an individual without a true understanding of the circumstances that created the problem. At it’s root, the issue is as **Malthus** and **Muffin** describe it. It really isn’t that easy for Aboriginal peoples in Canada (no comment on the US, don’t know much about things there beyond the commonly held social problems) to move off reservation and just get a job and an education and such. First off, most reservations are in remote areas with limited access to them. This country is enormous, empty, cold and wild, so getting around in the north is tricky and difficult. Some places are inaccessible in winter months, and might only be accessible by plane otherwise. Further, the racism inherent in our culture is subtle but distinct in preventing Aboriginals from getting jobs. And even further, many communities place a lot of pressure on their members, in a circle-the-wagons type of way, to remain true to their roots. Moving off reservation can be seen as selling out and they can be ostracized. Personally, I think the drunk idiot in the OP should be sentenced, and face a pretty harsh penalty. Drunk or not (sorry **Palooka** no pass there, his own goddamned fault) he let his kids die. He needs to be held directly responsible to the full extent of the law. I also agree with **RickJay** that two legal codes is a very bad thing in a democracy. Unfortunately, it may be the lesser of two evils to have this man remanded to a sentencing circle if only in the hopes that it will have a greater impact on his future behaviour, which is what matters most right now. In the end, however, we will continue to hear more and more stories like this until the real problems Aboriginals face is dealth with. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/37 "2009-01-08T17:54:25Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Underlining mine- that word doesn’t mean what you think it means. Sorry- it’s a pet peeve. According to every dictionary I’ve read it does, but maybe I’ve read the wrong ones, so what is the correct definition? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/38 "2009-01-08T17:59:26Z")
> [@scule](#): > > And even further, many communities place a lot of pressure on their members, in a circle-the-wagons type of way, to remain true to their roots. Moving off reservation can be seen as selling out and they can be ostracized. I could be wrong, but don’t they sacrifice certain legal rights and benefits by moving off the reservation? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/39 "2009-01-08T18:01:17Z")
> [@scule](#): > > According to every dictionary I’ve read it does, but maybe I’ve read the wrong ones, so what is the correct definition? To kill one in every ten of whatever it is you’re decimating. So ten percent of aborigines (or whoever) are slaughtered. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/40 "2009-01-08T18:03:27Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Cock. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh fuck you. Is it truly such a bad thing that Palooka is trying to head off your lynch mob with context? I don’t know what kind of punishment to give in this kind of case. Accidentally killing your kids? It’s a special case. Take the four traditional punishment motives: Retribution: Yep, just fry him. In a sense he deserves it. Incapacitation: He’s already killed all of his kids, not like he can do it again for kicks. Only concern here is the alcoholism. Deterrence: Do we honestly believe that other members of his community are going to think “you know, he only got 5 years for accidentally killing his kids, maybe I don’t need to be so careful with mine”? Rehabilitation: I can easily imagine a case where he was remorseful as hell. Given that and lengthy alcohol rehab, incarceration would be at best superfluous and at worst actively detrimental. You want to take the retributivist approach and fry him, fair enough. Anyone focused on the other three motives would instead prefer a massive dose of treatment accompanied by minimal incarceration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310.md?page=3)