# Drunk man negligent to his children, they freeze to death and he gets off easy \[RO\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310 "2009-01-08T00:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/41 "2009-01-08T18:06:22Z")
> [@scule](#): > > According to every dictionary I’ve read it does, but maybe I’ve read the wrong ones, so what is the correct definition? It references an old Roman punishment for recalcitrant legions. One man in ten would be selected by lot, and killed. So, a true decimation would only reduce a population by 10%. The problem is that while the roots of the word, and the origin are both clear to that meaning, the common use of the word is as you’ve said it. And many dictionaries reflect the common usage. The sell-outs. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/42 "2009-01-08T18:12:21Z")
Sell-outs indeed! 🙂 I knew the one-in-ten thing I’ve just seen the common term as I used it defined that way as well. Still, good to know. To answer **Cat Fight** ’s question, yes Aboriginal who register an address off-reserve do lose certain benefits. I’m no expert on them but one is tax-exemption. I also know that health care in Canada is a provincial concern, but reservations are taken care of by the federal government, and once you move off-reserve you need to be registered with the provincial government to receive health care. There are certain other benefits I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/43 "2009-01-08T18:14:43Z")
Just for the record, Yellow Quill isn’t a remote location by any reasonable Saskatchewan standard. It’s southeast of Melfort a bit. There aren’t any large centres right next to it, but it’s smack in the middle of the populated part of rural Saskatchewan. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/44 "2009-01-08T18:14:55Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > That is a good question. Along with how in the hell does someone get 51 convictions while only being 25 years old? Assuming that Canada, like the US, only counts convictions starting at age 18\*, then the guy has been arrested and convicted 7 times a year. > > That is just amazing. > > Slee Actually, it goes by a lot quicker if you commit a whole bunch of crimes at once. More efficient use of the legal system that way. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/45 "2009-01-08T18:24:33Z")
> [@scule](#): > > Never said it excuses his actions, but there is a subtle undercurrent in this thread from a certain perspective of outrage against an individual without a true understanding of the circumstances that created the problem. At it’s root, the issue is as **Malthus** and **Muffin** describe it. It really isn’t that easy for Aboriginal peoples in Canada (no comment on the US, don’t know much about things there beyond the commonly held social problems) to move off reservation and just get a job and an education and such. First off, most reservations are in remote areas with limited access to them. This country is enormous, empty, cold and wild, so getting around in the north is tricky and difficult. Some places are inaccessible in winter months, and might only be accessible by plane otherwise. Further, the racism inherent in our culture is subtle but distinct in preventing Aboriginals from getting jobs. And even further, many communities place a lot of pressure on their members, in a circle-the-wagons type of way, to remain true to their roots. Moving off reservation can be seen as selling out and they can be ostracized. I guess I say - so what? You’re just talking about trade-offs. Yes, you would have to give up certain things, like moving away from home and friends, facing social pressure, and standing up to bullies. But again, if you are otherwise going to condemn your children to a life of violence, alcoholism and possible death, so what? Nothing would be more important to me than the welfare of my children. I made some poor decisions, and got pregnant when I was 19, living at home and basically jobless. I sacrificed a lot for a lot of years in order to provide a decent home and lots of love for my daughter. That’s what trade-offs mean. Everyone makes trade-offs every day. I cannot think of a worse punishment than losing a child through your own negligence, so I don’t know the value of a lifetime sentence on the father. Plus, the circumstances of these deaths indicate to me that he didn’t give much of a shit in the first place. The real value of a lifetime jail term, particularly one rendered by a sentencing circle, would be to put the community on notice that this kind of horror will not be tolerated. This one case will probably not make much of a difference, but every little bit counts. It may also help to foster a new way of thinking - Blame on the white man (or the government or whoever) may be warranted, but it rarely promotes success. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/46 "2009-01-08T18:41:01Z")
> [@scule](#): > > According to every dictionary I’ve read it does, but maybe I’ve read the wrong ones, so what is the correct definition? As others have noted, “kill every tenth person”. As someone or other put it, the very existence of this word says a lot about the Romans as a civilization - how many civilizations even HAVE a word for “kill every tenth person”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/47 "2009-01-08T19:01:18Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Just for the record, Yellow Quill isn’t a remote location by any reasonable Saskatchewan standard. It’s southeast of Melfort a bit. There aren’t any large centres right next to it, but it’s smack in the middle of the populated part of rural Saskatchewan. I was speaking more in a general sense regarding Aboriginal persons, but this is valid for this individual I guess. As to **Sateryn76** ’s points, I think the “so what?” misses the point. It’s just not the same for people in some situations. Do you ever wonder why the same people commit crimes over and over and why the same people make bad decisions over and over? It’s because they don’t know any better. Either that or they simply lack the ability to personally overcome their demons. I’ve lived in shitty neighbourhoods and seen generational welfare families, people who literally knew nothing but welfare and, well, quite frankly white-trash lifestyles. Try talking to those people. They just simply don’t have any incentive, motivation, ability or knowledge of how to change things. Many Aboriginal people are in the same boat. I will reiterate that this does not excuse the guy in the OP. He deserves to pay a price for his crimes. I think the mother does too, to some degree. But it’s not so simple overall, if you see the bigger picture. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/48 "2009-01-08T19:02:58Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Thank you people for your scintillating additions to the conversation. I suggest you go and read **Muffin** ’s comments above to see what the SDMB should be like. > > Just because you CAN act like an ass in the pit, does not mean you MUST. I live here (in Canada) and I’m fuly aware of all the issues in **Muffin** ’s post (did work for an organization dealing with substance abuse --huffing specifically-- in Canadian aboriginal communities.) I actually support the concept of the sentencing circle because they are actually aiming to _rehabilitate_ rather than punish. A sentencing circle because it _does not_ mean he’ll get off lightly, but it does mean that there will likely be a sentence customized to his needs, so that he’ll still have an opportunity to live a productive and healthier life. But he has 16 convictions for failing to comply with court orders which suggests he’s not actually all that into rehabilitation. Sentencing circles are usually reserved for criminals who are not expected to spend more than 18-24 months in jail, so I will admit that it concerns me due to the fact that the issue is a capital crime. However, if the sentence is too light, a judge may still intervene. So I don’t raelly have an issue with having a sentencing circle provide recommendations in this case. What I do have issues with, are statements like this: > [@](#): > > Seems kind of harsh to fully blame a guy for what he does while he’s nearly blackout drunk. It’s smacks too much of apologists who say “He only hits me when he’s drunk, but he’s _really_ a great guy.” I’m not saying the guy should be lynched, but that people should damn well be held responsible for their actions while intoxicated. Rape a woman? Sorry, “I was drunk” is a bullshit answer. Get behind the wheel of a car and run down a family? “I was drunk.” is no excuse. And I would also like to see the kids’ mother called on the carpet for leaving her children in the care of a guy who was blind drunk arguing with her so badly that she felt she had to leave the house. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/49 "2009-01-08T19:06:45Z")
> [@scule](#): > > The plight of the First Nations people here is unlike just about any other people in history. They were decimated to near extinction, driven to the perimeters, hedged in and controlled. They had their way of life, their dignity, their very basic human rights completely stripped away. Since then they’ve been ostracised, segregated, abused and neglected by successive administrations in both the US and Canada. And now they live on the fringe, denied the basics of opportunity and future prospects that even the least of us non-Native people takes for granted. Really, I’m not exaggerating. There’s plenty of Aboriginal communities in Canada that don’t have clean water. Or even running water at all, even if it is undrinkable. There was an entire community from the coast of northern Ontario that was moved down to Ottawa (capital city) because their water was hazardous and their community was unlivable. They often live in mold-infested filthy homes, in communities in the worst parts of this already freezing country, and while some communities have access to resources on their lands, many more don’t and live in extreme poverty. On top of that, so many Aboriginal communites face serious problems with corrupt officials, both from outside and within the community. This is the shit they put up with, everywhere they are. They live awful lives, all over this country (and in the US). I have seen handout after handout wasted. I’ve seen people given free education off-reserve, I’ve seen scholarship books full of opportunities for Aboriginals, I’ve seen teachers wanting to do their best to help. Throwing money at the problem isn’t going to fix it, but social programs aren’t helping either. What can we do? The Canadian government can’t stop the corruption inside the reserves because if they go near it they are accused of sticking their nose into Aboriginal business. But say the word money and people come out of the woodwork. I’m a 22 year old Saskatchewan farmgirl. My dad is an alcoholic who was beaten by his father, and his father’s father was probably an alcoholic who beat his son too. Dad never even had the chance to finish school because he had to go to work on the farm. The residential school scandal was a horrible thing, but how long do I have to pay for those bad choices? I don’t give my father a pass, but he worked hard to get a better quality of life, but I’m supposed to feel bad for people who won’t even try? I’m not talking about Elders who suffered first-hand, I’m talking about their grandchildren, my peers, who went to the same schools I did. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/50 "2009-01-08T19:18:51Z")
Kudos to your father, really. It take a very strong man to overcome that kind of history and he deserves credit for it. But don’t think for a second that most people in the same boat wouldn’t change if they could do so. Many really just can’t. That’s the problem. What’s the answer? That’s the million (maybe billion) dollar question, isn’t it? I don’t really know, other than separate but equal is not a good solution for Aboriginal persons. Personally, I’m a bit harsh on this one in that I think reservations should be bulldozed and Aboriginal persons given a timeline for integration (with federal and provincial support) into wider Canadian society. Having them living on the fringe doesn’t work, and having special privilege out of guilt doesn’t work, so eventually we’re going to have to bring them into our world, so to speak, and preservation of the culture and history can be done the same as any other group of immigrants who moved here and built a community centre or what have you. But that’s just one idea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/51 "2009-01-08T19:21:33Z")
I have spent 5 years living near several semi remote reserves in north western Ontario and northern Manitoba. I resided on a reserve on the east coast of Vancouver Island for 5 years and my shop of 6 years to the present is adjacent to a reserve on Vancouver Island. The plight of reserves between the east coast of Vancouver Island and northern Canada is as different as night and day. Lets face it. When the white man lives in these isolated regions his drinking increases as well. that’s the northern way of life. But for most of the white people, when the mines close they move on. The other whites set up businesses and use their connections to facilitate the recreational industry of hunting and fishing. They always have a self reliant future. The natives have nowhere else to go, and many have nothing to do. There are no resources that they can capitalize on if they want to go beyond subsistence.Few jobs available. They’ve abandoned their previous way of life and now totally dependant on the government for sustenance. And many use that sustenance to escape. The other aspect that has never been studied as far as I know, but I strongly suspect is that these falling down drunk Indians really don’t drink anymore than your walking drunk white man. I’ve sat in bars with northern Indians till closing and have often seen a glass of beer just sit on the table for long periods, drinking less often than me. But their lower jaw goes slack and when its time to go they can be difficult to move. The trajedy is that there is no solution that is politically acceptable at the moment. My experience is from 30 years ago. Obviously nothing has changed. The chiefs who try to make their communities dry are losing the battle. We need a program to give confidence to the young and encourage them to get off the isolated reserves. Support them off the reserve as well and allocate a portion of civil service jobs available to start them on a path of self reliance. There’s no future in the north for a sustained population without an enduring mine.The sooner we understand that the sooner we’ll be able to address the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/52 "2009-01-08T19:31:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The other aspect that has never been studied as far as I know, but I strongly suspect is that these falling down drunk Indians really don’t drink anymore than your walking drunk white man. I’ve sat in bars with northern Indians till closing and have often seen a glass of beer just sit on the table for long periods, drinking less often than me. But their lower jaw goes slack and when its time to go they can be difficult to move. There have been numerous studies of groups of people who came to alcohol “late” and being unable to process it the same way as groups of people who have been drinking for thousands of years. That excludes alcoholics, of course, who are found in most groups and definitely process alcohol differently than other people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/53 "2009-01-08T19:40:32Z")
> [@scule](#): > > \separate but equal is not a good solution for Aboriginal persons. Personally, I’m a bit harsh on this one in that I think reservations should be bulldozed and Aboriginal persons given a timeline for integration (with federal and provincial support) into wider Canadian society. Having them living on the fringe doesn’t work, and having special privilege out of guilt doesn’t work, so eventually we’re going to have to bring them into our world, so to speak, and preservation of the culture and history can be done the same as any other group of immigrants who moved here and built a community centre or what have you. But that’s just one idea. I fully support this idea. I think most Canadians will agree at this point that the whole reservation-and-eternal-welfare system is badly broken. Yeah, what happened 200 years ago was bad (although it really was just business as usual when one group of humans met a different group), but I think it’s time to let it go. I don’t have any guilt over what my ancestors did or didn’t do in settling Canada; it really should become moot and we should all move on. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/54 "2009-01-08T20:55:04Z")
I mean no disrespect to those of you who overcame your ugly childhoods to become productive citizens, but you simply cannot compare your situation with that of on-reserve natives unless you were one. To the extent that you had these things, your experience was more privileged than kids on reserves: - an extended family or community which could provide material and emotional support (including stuff like role models and ideas about how to be a parent) if your immediate family cannot - functioning institutions like schools, churches, community centres, etc where you could safely spend time away from home, and learn life skills that you don’t learn at home - having role models from your community who succeeded in a way that you might be able to, too (for example, many kids on-reserve have never known anyone to go away to the city and have a productive career after that) It’s quite easy for us to sit here and say these kids should just move to the city and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. But this is simply not a realistic option for most of them. For one thing, it’s expensive to travel to reserves and back (because they’re not generally found on main transport routes - there are reserves in Ontario that require a minimum of $1000 and several days just to get to from the _closest_ cities), so leaving home means leaving for extended periods of time. Lots of people who have grown up with all the advantages in the world are not able to do this. Plus, the family and community on the reserve are the only ones they know. How easy would it be for you to pick up and start again among total strangers, in another city (not to mention another culture), knowing that you might not see your family and community again for many years? Perhaps you could do it, but it would not be easy, particularly if you didn’t have the life skills and emotional strength that many on-reserve natives lack. We accept that there are things all kids need in order to thrive: - love and discipline in appropriate doses - basic physical needs - clean water, healthy food, home heating - stable relationships between the adults in their lives - physical safety from violence (e.g. family violence, which is prevalent on reserves) and negative environmental impacts (e.g. evacuating [Kashechewan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashechewan_First_Nation) every year because of the flooding, or unrelenting chemical pollution in Aamjiwnnang at levels which would be heavily prosecuted if they happened off-reserve) - opportunities for social interactions in safe spaces (e.g. functioning social institutions, peer groups, etc) Many kids on many native reserves are missing some or all of these things. It’s one thing to have a traumatic childhood and a dysfunctional immediate family. It’s quite another thing to not have any examples of thriving childhoods and strong immediate families as part of your community. I’m not for one moment saying that makes it okay for them to get drunk and kill their children. I’m suggesting that perhaps our ideas of guilt and innocence and retribution and rehabilitation\* are not appropriate to their circumstances, and maybe we should find a different way to approach it that would be more effective than harsh retributive judgments. Consider: if our response to violence against women in native communities was to indiscriminately jail the abusers (equivalent to the zero-tolerance approach adopted in many non-native communities), there would not be very many men left in the communities at all. You’d get a lot of women working a lot harder to pick up the slack, and a lot of young men with nobody to look up to at all. Exactly what would that accomplish? - which have come from a specific historical and cultural context which has no positive relevance to North American native communities or their ideas of those things, but I don’t want to hijack this any further ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/55 "2009-01-08T21:04:19Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Consider: if our response to violence against women in native communities was to indiscriminately jail the abusers (equivalent to the zero-tolerance approach adopted in many non-native communities), there would not be very many men left in the communities at all. You’d get a lot of women working a lot harder to pick up the slack, and a lot of young men with nobody to look up to at all. Exactly what would that accomplish? Um, fewer women being beaten? Fewer children learning to abuse women at their father’s (and mother’s) knee? More men being held accountable for their criminal actions? Any of these would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/56 "2009-01-08T21:40:34Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Um, fewer women being beaten? Fewer children learning to abuse women at their father’s (and mother’s) knee? More men being held accountable for their criminal actions? > > Any of these would be a good start. You really think widespread incarceration will have more positive effects on a community than negative? I’ve never seen it work this way - do you have some examples? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/57 "2009-01-08T21:43:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As others have noted, “kill every tenth person”. > > As someone or other put it, the very existence of this word says a lot about the Romans as a civilization - how many civilizations even HAVE a word for “kill every tenth person”? 😃 At least two, Rome and English-speaking Western civilization; and English-speakers stole our word so i guess that says even more about us! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/58 "2009-01-08T21:58:36Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > At least two, Rome and English-speaking Western civilization; and English-speakers stole our word so i guess that says even more about us! 🙂 True enough; but obviously we English speakers tend to mangle the meaning pretty badly. Even, as it were, to _decimate_ it. 😃 As someone one remarked, English is the language that follows other languages down dark alleys, mugs them, and then rifles through their pockets for loose vocabulary. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/59 "2009-01-08T22:18:43Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > You really think widespread incarceration will have more positive effects on a community than negative? > > I’ve never seen it work this way - do you have some examples? I suppose you have a good point - much of what goes on in the inner city community is blamed on the high percentage of adult males in prison. I don’t know if this is true, but it seems logical at least. So, if bootstraps are no good, and jailing is no good, and no examples are available for the young, and they are too far out to travel anywhere, etc., etc… How do we fix this? Or is the correct answer “we” don’t do anything (or at least not very much) - “they” do it themselves? I think it’s about time “we” leave a lot of this to “them”. IMHO - All wife-beaters and child-killers still belong in jail… ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310/60 "2009-01-08T22:28:27Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > You really think widespread incarceration will have more positive effects on a community than negative? > > I’ve never seen it work this way - do you have some examples? I have no idea- I just know that NOT incarcerating criminals sends the message that criminal behavior is acceptable and reasonable. Oh, I’m sorry, it’s not really your fault that you beat your wife- you’re native- go right ahead, don’t let us stop you. You are teaching the next generation, that’s all. As long as you’re okay with that, then fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunk-man-negligent-to-his-children-they-freeze-to-death-and-he-gets-off-easy-ro/480310.md?page=4)