# Drunken fucktard soldier kills endangered tiger at Baghdad zoo.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 20, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848 "2003-09-20T21:15:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/141 "2003-09-21T12:22:59Z")
I’d just like to thank **Amberlei** for making the kind of thoughtful, intelligent reply that **milroyj** really should have made, but didn’t. Thank you, **Amberlei**.
Carry on.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/142 "2003-09-21T12:30:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> \*\* Nobody in the tiger business would put a tiger down for biting around feeding time. But, it isn’t murder. Murder is the killing of a human being. If you’d like to argue for a change in the existing law, that’s fine. \*\*
Oh, for fucks sake.
We’re not talking about a _charge_ of murder, here. It’s not Murder in the First Degree or Second Degree, or anything like that.
So, yes, it’s true you cannot be _charged_ with murder for killing a tiger in the United States. But can you at least see that, outside the _strict legal_ sense, the word murder has more than one meaning?
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/143 "2003-09-21T12:44:24Z")
**Beagle** said:
> [@](#):
>
> Nobody in the tiger business would put a tiger down for biting around feeding time. But, it isn’t murder. Murder is the killing of a human being. If you’d like to argue for a change in the existing law, that’s fine.
**Amberlei** said:
> [@](#):
>
> P.S. For what it’s worth, much as I love animals, I don’t think murder applies to them.
And I agree with them. That is all I am saying.
As far as the OP, it started out with “The US military is bad” and quickly devolved into “Bush sucks”. Yeah, we got that already. It’s been done before, _ad absurdum_. I suggest that friend **Diogenes** makes “Bush sucks” his sig, thereby saving everybody else a whole bunch of time.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/144 "2003-09-21T12:52:34Z")
And if your sig said “I’m a fucktard without _anything_ useful to say on any topic whatsoever”, or if it just said “Banned” under your username, everybody else would save a whole bunch of time, too. 🙂
Fucktard.
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### Author:  [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/145 "2003-09-21T13:05:25Z")
Yeah, one would think that a poster that has been here since '99 would know about things like supporting an argument.
I like how he takes another poster’s opinion and uses it as if it were solid evidence in his case. I still haven’t seen a good case against why murder cannot be applied to animals. Except some idiotic “It isn’t because I say it isn’t” baby talk. This is the straight dope milroyj, you have a long membership here and know how this place works. Put up or shut up. Troll.
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### Author:  [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/146 "2003-09-21T13:08:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by spooje \*
> \*\*Oh, for fucks sake.
>
> We’re not talking about a _charge_ of murder, here. It’s not Murder in the First Degree or Second Degree, or anything like that.
>
> So, yes, it’s true you cannot be _charged_ with murder for killing a tiger in the United States. But can you at least see that, outside the _strict legal_ sense, the word murder has more than one meaning? \*\*
**Beagle** said:
## quote:
## Nobody in the tiger business would put a tiger down for biting around feeding time. But, it isn’t murder. Murder is the killing of a human being. If you’d like to argue for a change in the existing law, that’s fine.
See spoojes post? There are several just like it as well.
Here is an idea: SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT. Other people’s opinions and failed arguments don’t count.
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### Author:  [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/147 "2003-09-21T13:10:45Z")
For shit’s sake give it a fucking rest already! Some of you believe that the word murder can apply to animals. Fine. Some of you don’t Fine.
I still maintain that if you can apply the word murder to an animal then it would also be murder to kill ANY other living thing.
There. My worthless two cents yet again.
[sub] yes, I know that I just continued the damn thread hijack but big fucking deal. [/sub]
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/148 "2003-09-21T13:17:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by milroyj \*
> Apparently you missed the fine post by **Amberlei** above. It was posted some 7 hours before yours, so who exactly isn’t reading the thread???
No, I did not miss “the fine post by **Amberlei** above” but I did notice that it contradicts your position much more than it supports it.
> [@](#):
>
> Another keeper was attacked by an escaped cougar. The cougar was subsequently caught but wasn’t euthanized.
I also must have missed the memo or post where you said **Amberlei** was speaking on your behalf. You posted an assertion, you were challenged on it and we expect you to answer the challenge. I see the best that you can do is point at a post which contradicts your position more than supports it.
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### Author:  [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/149 "2003-09-21T14:09:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by milroyj \*
> \*\*Webster’s clearly defines “murder” as killing humans. So [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) :rolleyes: and OED define it differently. So what? Killing a tiger is still NOT murder. \*\*
Congratulations, **milroyj**. This is the dumbest attempt at debating I’ve seen in my entire time on the boards not coming from an obvious troll. You should be proud.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/150 "2003-09-21T14:30:02Z")
Murder is a legal term. Technically, murder requires not only the killing of a human being but the required mental state, or _mens rea_. The _actus reus_ of murder is killing a human being. It’s just that simple. Killing a tiger is not murder unless you can find some sovereign government which makes it murder.
I’m pretty sure it is a crime for a couple of reasons: animal cruelty, endangered species, just to name two.
Again, if you know _anything_ about tigers (based on the handlers I’ve met) you don’t pet them around feeding time. It’s just not done. Nor do you handle or even pet tigers while intoxicated. This is negligence (gross?) on the part of the soldiers.
I used to pet a tiger named Balshoi, sweet as a kitten (that weighed 700 pounds). Around feeding time, I’d just go around and watch their attitudes change from around six feet away. A tiger roaring in your face stinks. Not to mention spraying.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/151 "2003-09-21T14:38:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> \*\*Murder is a legal term. Technically, murder requires not only the killing of a human being but the required mental state, or _mens rea_. The _actus reus_ of murder is killing a human being. It’s just that simple. Killing a tiger is not murder unless you can find some sovereign government which makes it murder. \*\*
Murder is a legal term _and_ a general term. Your definition is the legal one and is perfectly accurate, but it’s not the only one.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/152 "2003-09-21T14:40:41Z")
By the way, all these tiger rules I’ve mentioned apply to handling tigers from _outside_ the cage. Actually going inside the cage and working with a tiger takes years of preparation, and may never happen if the particular tiger does not take a liking to you.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/153 "2003-09-21T14:46:55Z")
And so Diogenes sees again that even when one posts a rant about what should be indefensible behaviour, things will still explode into multi-page atrocities. Like when I posted about witnessing stewardesses post-9/11 with stickers on their luggage saying “Bush Knew”.
The OP is one I agree with 100%, except that I would have also mentioned the “treatment” of the animals at the Kuwait Zoo by Iraqi troops as another example of what happens when out of control soldiers and zoo animals come together. Of course, there can be no comparison of the magnitude of the events - here we’re talking about human stupidity which recognizes no political borders or social bounds, and in the other we’re talking about subhuman barbarism which one would think would be universally decried as well…
I believe my feelings echo those of the OP - if the soldiers were actually being careless, then a court marshall seems in order. And if they were also drunk and in uniform/possession of military hardware (such as their rifles) at the time, it seems that some serious jail time should be warranted, if guilty.
Maybe as “compensation” the US could do something like fund purchase of land for reserve as a habitat for these tigers in whatever countries they originate. That may be overly simplistic, I realize.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/154 "2003-09-21T14:48:20Z")
Murder is _only_ a legal term, to me. This is obviously cruelty to animals, to wit, a tiger. This was the unnecessary killing of an endangered species. This was drunken, probably, gross negligence on the part of the soldiers. Murder? Maybe in some province of India somewhere, dunno.
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### Author:  [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/155 "2003-09-21T14:51:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> \*\*Murder is _only_ a legal term, to me. \*\*
You, however, are not the only person involved in this discussion. It obviously means “wanton killing” to many others, and these people do have some dictionary cites to back them up.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/156 "2003-09-21T14:52:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> **Murder is _only_ a legal term, to me.**
That’s not my problem, nor the OP’s then, is it?! 😃 [Murder](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder).
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/157 "2003-09-21T14:53:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Miller \*
> However, considering that **milroyj** is stupid on a truly epic scale, I fully expect him to pounce on the first definition of the word and proclaim that he’s been right all along, while totally ignoring all of the other, equally valid defintions of the word. And, of course, any attempt to point out his nearsightedness will be met with the endlessly repeated mantra “It wasn’t murder. You can only murder humans,” which will continue until either everyone in the debate who’s mind functions at more than the merely autonomous [n.b. everyone but **milroyj** ) level gets sick of it and gives up, or until a mod steps in with a warning about spamming the board.
I have to say **Miller** was right on target in his prediction. The thread is being completely hijacked by this stupid non-argument. **milroyj** , why don’t you just stop this stupidity? It’s not like you are convincing anyone. You are just pissing people off.
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### Author:  [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/158 "2003-09-21T15:04:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Monty \*
> \*\*Tee: Please provide the full text of General Order #1. \*\*
My problem is I can’t open .pdf files on this laptop. This is a synopsis from Camp Doha in Kuwait with other links provided:
[http://w3.mivlmd.cablespeed.com/~ashbyj/categories/soldiers/safety.htm](http://w3.mivlmd.cablespeed.com/~ashbyj/categories/soldiers/safety.htm)
> [@](#):
>
> All military members deploying to Kuwait must comply with the provisions of a general order issued by U.S. Central Command. Under this general order, all members are held accountable for any violations. The order prohibits:
>
> Possession, manufacture, importation, distribution or consumption of alcohol anywhere in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.
>
> Possession or importation of pornography or sexually explicit material. This includes, but is not limited to, any materials that depict a nude upper body or genitalia.
>
> Possession of private firearms/explosives.
>
> Gambling.
>
> Non-Moslems from entering a mosque.
>
> Disturbing archeological or historical sites.
>
> Exchanging currency at any other than the official rate.
>
> Feeding/adopting animals.
>
> Attempting to convert people from one particular faith or religion to another.
>
> Taking war trophies as souvenirs.
>
> Viewing public executions.
…and I’ve found news reports and bloggers referring to GO-1 being in effect in Iraq, Afghanistan, Qatar, Bosnia…someone else might have better luck w/complete cites.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/159 "2003-09-21T15:05:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by jjimm \*
> \*\*That’s not my problem, nor the OP’s then, is it?! 😃 [Murder](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder). \*\*
I don’t know that I was whooshed so much as brushed back. I think the first definition of murder agrees with my point. Unless we have a murder of crows that I missed. Your comment makes me think I am arguing in a vacuum for no reason than to up my already bloated post count. That’s OK too. 😉
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drunken-fucktard-soldier-kills-endangered-tiger-at-baghdad-zoo/202848/160 "2003-09-21T15:07:54Z")
_Post count ergo propter count_
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