# Dualism vs. Another Way **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181 "2013-03-06T11:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/21 "2013-03-07T02:29:09Z")
One reason three-way controversies are rare is that it is strategically profitable for two sides to combine forces against the third side. There have been relatively few three-way wars, and it is also fairly rare for there to be long periods of stable three-way political divisions. When a third party becomes big enough to be meaningful, one of the other two parties will usually cut a deal with it and absorb it. That said…Viva Seven-Up! ---
**Author:** ![K.S.Masmacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@K.S.Masmacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K.S.Masmacho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/22 "2013-03-07T02:55:41Z")
Hear, hear! A refreshing third alternative.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/23 "2013-03-07T03:53:46Z")
> [@K.S.Masmacho](#): > > So in other words, no you can’t be objective and see another way. Thanks for confirming that! I’m so sorry that you had trouble understanding the words we posted and had to resort to changing them to words you had a rebuttal for. Speaking for myself, I’ll try to use smaller words next time we [del]converse[/del]talk. ---
**Author:** ![K.S.Masmacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@K.S.Masmacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K.S.Masmacho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/24 "2013-03-07T04:06:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m so sorry that you had trouble understanding the words we posted and had to resort to changing them to words you had a rebuttal for. Speaking for myself, I’ll try to use smaller words next time we [del]converse[/del]talk. [del]I would very much appreciate that, yes.[/del] Thank you.😉 ---
**Author:** ![K.S.Masmacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@K.S.Masmacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K.S.Masmacho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/25 "2013-03-07T04:13:17Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I think I do understand what the OP means. It is possible to be a person of faith who does not reject the evidence demonstrating that life evolved; it is possible to believe that the law should not permit abortion on demand and not be a hater of women or believe that abortion should never be allowed. > > I actually believe there are lots of people who fall into those categories, but media portrayals (and arguments on the internet, should one be so foolish as to partake) suggest that these alternate views are not possible. > > It’s nothing new, but there does seem to be an incresing tendency to see certain issues as only “us vs. them,” with each side claiming to be absolutely right, everyone who disagrees as not only absolutely wrong but wrong-headed and wrong-hearted. If one is detrmined to villify the other side in a debate, it’s more convenient to aim at the most unattractive and easily dismissed views, and ignore the ones that are more reasonable. And I really, really appreciate this comment. It means that someone else out there does understand what I was trying to get at – and expressed it better than I was able to. I don’t mind if der trihs and Czarcasm disagree with me; that freedom to hold and defend our own opinion is something I value. But to know that other people understand that there may be alternatives to our dualistic reasoning is refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/26 "2013-03-07T04:14:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; there IS no “other way”. The existence of evolution is as settled a fact as you will ever find, and “theistic evolution” is a joke. You simply picked one of the _worst possible examples_ for postulating a “third way”. The facts of evolution are established. The present evolutionary theory that fits those facts, like any theory, is a provisional scientific model until more data and more lateral thinking produces an even more robust scientific model. Religious explanations of scientific data are just not relevant to science. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/27 "2013-03-07T04:41:45Z")
> [@K.S.Masmacho](#): > > And I really, really appreciate this comment. It means that someone else out there does understand what I was trying to get at – and expressed it better than I was able to. > > I don’t mind if der trihs and Czarcasm disagree with me; that freedom to hold and defend our own opinion is something I value. > > But to know that other people understand that there may be alternatives to our dualistic reasoning is refreshing. But you are only proposing _one_ alternative. Why not a thousand different alternatives, one for every god, all equally as likely as the next? In fact, If evolution had the assistance of a god, another alternative would be that a god had the assistance of Santa Claus or Aslan. Please explain why your particular alternative was the only one to spring to your mind? Is it any more likely than the others I’ve brought to the table? ---
**Author:** ![K.S.Masmacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@K.S.Masmacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K.S.Masmacho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/28 "2013-03-07T07:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > But you are only proposing one alternative. Why not a thousand different alternatives, one for every god, all equally as likely as the next? In fact, If evolution had the assistance of a god, another alternative would be that a god had the assistance of Santa Claus or Aslan. Please explain why your particular alternative was the only one to spring to your mind? Is it any more likely than the others I’ve brought to the table? There you go: a thought allowing for alternative ideas that you yourself do not believe. That is being objective! And that is all I am asking for. Again, thank you. Now, if what you are really asking me to do, is to jump into the debate for or against the existence of God, I respectfully decline, as that argument has been and is being waged elsewhere by others, non-stop. Those who are interested in discussing that, please do. In the meantime, it is an argument which remains unsettled. Therefore, God is still allowed to be a part of some people’s viewpoints. As is Santa, Aslan, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or any other deity of your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/29 "2013-03-07T07:27:38Z")
There aren’t just two ways here anyway - because neither side is a singular entity. Evolution isn’t one thing - it’s a collection of scientific theories for a very broad range of evidence etc - It’s quite possible that two different scientists might give you quite different descriptions of what evolution means in the context of their work (granted, it would probably be consistent with a central theory). And creationism certainly isn’t one thing. _Creationism espoused by a single person_ isn’t even always one thing - because (for example) one minute it’ll be how there’s copious evidence for a young earth, then the next it’ll be how a created earth shouldn’t be expected to look young. Those aren’t even the same idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/30 "2013-03-07T07:35:29Z")
1 Hey guys, I’ve got a great new idea! 2 Why don’t we all just agree that sometimes things are quite complicated!! 3 ??? 4 Jesus!!!l!!1!!! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/31 "2013-03-07T12:04:44Z")
> [@K.S.Masmacho](#): > > There you go: a thought allowing for alternative ideas that you yourself do not believe. That is being objective! And that is all I am asking for. Again, thank you. > > Now, if what you are really asking me to do, is to jump into the debate for or against the existence of God, I respectfully decline, as that argument has been and is being waged elsewhere by others, non-stop. Those who are interested in discussing that, please do. > > In the meantime, it is an argument which remains unsettled. Therefore, God is still allowed to be a part of some people’s viewpoints. As is Santa, Aslan, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or any other deity of your choice. Which god are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/32 "2013-03-07T14:55:22Z")
> [@K.S.Masmacho](#): > > You really have to trump an idea you disagree with, without being able to step back objectively and saying, > > “You know what, I really don’t believe gods exist at all. And yet, if one did, and one made the world via evolution, well – crazy as that sounds to me – I could see that might be one option out there, sure, even if I highly doubt it.” – ? “You know, if angels did exist, the idea that the planets stay in the orbits that they do because angels push them around may not be something that I personally believe, but, crazy as it sounds, sure, I guess that planetary motion _could_ be attributable to angels, and not really just that theory of gravity. There’s no reason you have to take the dogmatic course and declare that planets can go around all by themselves without angels!” How’d I do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/33 "2013-03-07T15:08:28Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > “You know, if angels did exist, the idea that the planets stay in the orbits that they do because angels push them around may not be something that I personally believe, but, crazy as it sounds, sure, I guess that planetary motion _could_ be attributable to angels, and not really just that theory of gravity. There’s no reason you have to take the dogmatic course and declare that planets can go around all by themselves without angels!” > > How’d I do? Not bad. While we’re at it, what about the idea that rocks are afraid of heights, and that is why they rush to the ground when you let go of them? ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/34 "2013-03-07T15:21:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not bad. While we’re at it, what about the idea that rocks are afraid of heights, and that is why they rush to the ground when you let go of them? Pfft. “Afraid of heights”? How ridiculous! Everybody knows they long for reunification with their natural material sphere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/35 "2013-03-07T15:27:25Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > Pfft. “Afraid of heights”? How ridiculous! Everybody knows they long for reunification with their natural material sphere. I’m open-minded enough to consider _both_ possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/36 "2013-03-07T15:35:52Z")
> [@K.S.Masmacho](#): > > 1. recategorizing a third way into one of the original two ways is a way of avoiding highlighting the third way, and Wrong. Look, on abortion, either we put women in prison for having abortions or we don’t. We either put doctors in prison for performing abortions or we don’t. If you don’t agree, explain what your “third way” would be, exactly. Because changing attitudes toward abortion, or trying to convince people not to have abortions, is totally consistent with being pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/37 "2013-03-07T15:45:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m open-minded enough to consider _both_ possibilities. [Obligatory XKCD link](http://xkcd.com/774/): “The important thing is that you’ve found a way to feel superior to both.” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/38 "2013-03-07T17:42:05Z")
So what you’re really saying is “Why aren’t more people vehemently agreeing with me and my excellent in between position”? For the three examples you mention it’s because, as has been presented already, just not the way **I** prefer: 1. If you agree with evolution, you agree with evolution. Stipulating planning and guidance from a god may satisfy your religious urges, but the stipulation is completely irrelevant to the evolution-creationism debate. It’s a position containing no arguments against creationism that aren’t contained in the scientific position of “Evolution is a fact”, and unless you foolishly use it to argue against or for parts of evolutionary theory, it’s a stipulation completely irrelevant to the veracity of the scientific standpoint. 2. If you accept abortion in some cases, you’re pro-choice. You may get lumped in with the pro-lifers by your opponents if, in a debate on the limits on abortion, you think more restrictions are in order, but that’s just the effect of the importance and dominance of the overarching legal/illegal debate, much in the way you appear to exclude people supporting “lovingly helping each person involved to understand all of the options before making a decision either way” from the pro-choice side. 3. Liberal-Conservative polarization is a consequence of the US two-party system, but even so there already exists varied labels here. Moderate conservatives, extreme liberals, libertarians, communists. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/39 "2013-03-07T18:25:12Z")
> [@naita](#): > > So what you’re really saying is “Why aren’t more people vehemently agreeing with me and my excellent in between position”? It’s more simple than that. There is an unavoidable dualism in every matter of opinion: agreement with me vs being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181/40 "2013-03-07T23:35:58Z")
[Very appropriate non-xkcd link.](http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/carroll/article/JON-CARROLL-3324002.php) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dualism-vs-another-way/652181.md?page=3)