# Dubya Drivin' Drunk...does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2000, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485 "2000-11-03T00:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/121 "2000-11-05T04:52:32Z")
Freedom said: “The democrat who released this info was a delegate at the democratic convention, and was the democrat’s candidate for governor a couple of years ago.” \ Freedom: “He has admitted that he released this for maximum political damage. As soon as the Fox news station reported this, a blitz faxing campaign happened across the nation. Every news room received a faxed copy of the arrest record within an hour. No one knows who did the faxing.” Not implausible, but where did you get these 2 facts? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/122 "2000-11-05T05:32:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > > Go ahead and deny that the DNC was involved. This is the board that LIVES by Occahm’s Razor. My money is that this was approved by the upper levels of the Gore campaign. > > **jshore** > > I have seen that theory floated already. I think you somehow posted on the wrong thread. I think you meant to post over here: [Why are Americans in love with conspiracies?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45091) > > 🙂 Perhaps I did! On the other hand, as the quote you made just above this shows, I am not the only one around with conspiracy theories. And, I bet I am less wedded to mine than you are to yours! 😉 Alas I must admit that I don’t even respect Gore enough to deny yours as a possibility! ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/123 "2000-11-05T05:34:13Z")
I heard the bit about the faxes on the TV when the story broke. I heard it on several different channels, CNN, NBC and Fox are three that I am sure of. I saw an interview with Connoly after he was “outed” as the source. He has been running an anti-GW website for a while now. He flat out admitted that he hates Bush and he timed this for maximum damage. And for all you conspiracy fans out there… Gore’s press secretary, Chris Lehane, hails from Kennebunkport, Maine. Yes, the very same exact town where this leak stems from. I know this alone doesn’t prove anything, but this seems a fairly obvious move by the Gore campaign. Sure they were probably smart enough to TRY and make it look they had nothing to do with it, but you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/124 "2000-11-05T08:51:08Z")
Especially if you think Bush will win by LANDSLIDE. If he wins, (which I fear he may just do, and I will go into mourning) it will be a squeaker. Question: regarding Bush’s latest MORON remark (re social security) “What do they think it is, a FEDERAL program?” (truly priceless)… what the hell did he think he meant? I can’t figure out what it was he was thinking to have made such a ridiculous error, what it was he was _attempting_ to say…can anyone enlighten me about this? stoid ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/125 "2000-11-05T10:17:16Z")
Stoidela asks: "Question: regarding Bush’s latest MORON remark (re social security) “What do they think it is, a FEDERAL program?” (truly priceless)… what the hell did he think he meant? I can’t figure out what it was he was thinking to have made such a ridiculous error, what it was he was attempting to say…can anyone enlighten me about this? A: W’s quote from Saturday’s NYT reads: “This frightens some in Washington because they want the federal government controlling Social Security, like its some sort of federal program. We understand differently though. You see, it’s your money, not the govenment’s money. You ought to be allowed to invest it the way you see fit.” My interpretation is that W is trying to imply that Social Security is/should be a savings program as opposed to a pay-as-you-go transfer program from the young and middle aged adults to the elderly. If it’s a savings program, then it seems less strange to allow the contributors to invest the proceeds in the stock market. (If you conceive social security as a sort of backstop to an individual’s retirement savings, then exposure to the stock market might seem riskier.) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/126 "2000-11-05T11:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoidela \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > > \*\* You don’t think it was abusive at all in this regard–the leader of the free world, in his fifties, having sexual relations with someone in her early twenties who is a junior-lackey member of his staff? > > \*\* > > Absolutely not!! > > Have you ever been a 20 year old girl? I have. Sexual harassment my ass. > > I’m a sick to death of the society making women into “victims” in every sexual situation in which there is the slightest disparity of power between her and him. It demeans the women in question. > > stoid \*\* As Scylla said, it is not about making women into victims. It is about abusing power, whether the abuser is a man or woman. And Stoidela, even if there are situations where the disparity in power between the parties is slight, you’re not suggesting this is one of them, correct? Is it even possible to envision a greater gap in power than this one, the Prez with an intern? BTW, I would come to the same conclusion even if both parties were men (thereby taking out any element of “victimizing” women). ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/127 "2000-11-05T14:11:37Z")
Stoidela, Clinton has a daughter close to Lewinsky’s age. I wonder who HE’D blame were he to find out that Chelsea got involved with a 45 year old professor? I wonder who HE’D judge to be most at fault were he to find out that this professor was married and that Chelsea was the most recent of many affairs. Yes, Lewinsky may have known exactly what she was doing when she flashed Clinton her thong underwear. She certainly won’t be beatified anytime soon. But she was young, immature, and emotionally unstable. He, as a father, a husband and one of the most powerful people in the freaking free world should have shown better judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/128 "2000-11-05T14:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Like from governor of Arkansas to president? That kind of Giant step up? I don’t know if Arkansas has the same weak-governor system as Texas and many other Southern states have, but if so, sure. What happened to your being a Browne supporter? ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/129 "2000-11-05T16:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Well you are certainly no rocket scientist… > > Especially if you think Bush will win by LANDSLIDE. If he wins, (which I fear he may just do, and I will go into mourning) it will be a squeaker. I had it pointed out to me recently that these threads stay around a loooong time. I think you would do well to remember that as well. Bush was recently in NJ. Gore was recently in Tennesee. Who seems confident and who seems worried to you? > [@](#): > > What happened to your being a Browne supporter? Browne represents the candidate closest to my personal beliefs. However, I don’t see much in the news or on this board about Browne. When you are polling 1%, you are just not much of an impact. I like Bush. I didn’t start out liking him, but he has grown on me. So my choices are, stay quiet and wait for a Browne thread, or jump in an argue against the Gore supporters. Since I enjoy debating, I have picked a position I can live with, and one that is active. How come you can be a Gore supporter and a Nader supporter, but the same doesn’t apply to Bush and Browne? ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/130 "2000-11-05T16:24:40Z")
These are excerpts from today’s Wall St. Journal. You need a suscription to read the whole article, so I can’t post a link. > [@](#): > > The story was indeed **broken by Fox News’s Carl Cameron** at 6 p.m. > A couple of minutes later, Mr. Cameron reported a blast fax with the > documentation of Bush’s DUI arrest was received in newsrooms all over > the country. **Mr. Cameron calls the blast fax “a mystery” because he > had nothing to do with it.** Anybody out there want to give a possible explanation for the Blast Fax? And then to put this into the context of just what Gore is willing to do in a campaign: > [@](#): > > Mr. Gore’s campaign has a history of hardball tactics. Bill Bradley > called Mr. Gore “the elephant of negative advertising” during the > primaries and accused him of “low-level, bottom-feeding politics” after > Mr. Gore implied that Mr. Bradley’s Medicaid proposals discriminated > against minorities. Walter Mondale’s 1984 campaign manager, Bob Beckel, > has reminded us that “the first one to use Willie Horton against Dukakis > in > 1988 was not George Bush, it was Al Gore in New York.” ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/131 "2000-11-05T16:24:48Z")
A note: When we are questioning personal accountability, it is manifestly unfair to use the current lame-duck president as a character comparison in place of the Democratic candidate, either by direct comparison or reference. Algore has plenty of character flaws of his own. Let’s stick to those. [Threateningly displaying Wally’s “Putz” icon.] ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/132 "2000-11-05T16:26:07Z")
When you started your landslide thread, you mentioned being a Browne supporter. I was just wondering if that was still the case. Sorry if it looked like malice was intended in my question. I’m not a Gore supporter under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/133 "2000-11-05T16:58:25Z")
No problem. Believe it or not, I was just accused in that thread as trying to play myself off as a Naderite. Daniel thought he was EXPOSING me as an undercover Bush operative.🙂 Check out the last page in the thread if you want to see what I’m talking about. I’m not quite sure how he missed the opening statement in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/134 "2000-11-05T17:24:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > \*\*ElvisL1ves > \*\* > > I know you want an actual quote, but if you are ignorant enough to think that Gore has not lied about soliciting campaign donations from the Communist Chinese Government, then I can be to lazy enough to go find the ice tea excuse. > \*\* Really now? Are you saying that a group of nuns in LA represented the Chinese government? Do you have a basis for saying so? Or for believing that THAT would have been the most efficient way for the Chinese to get money to the Democrats? I remind you of Republican National Committee Chairman Haley Barbour taking a whole lot more Chinese money, NOT giving it back, and getting recommended for prosecution for it. Re the “iced tea excuse”: As I asked before (and which is really the heart of the matter) Is that really the worst you can say about Gore with 8 years of material to work with? Call me “ignorant” if you like, but the evidence would seem to be much stronger for your being a liar, trying to hide it by calling someone else one. That’s been a too-typical Republican pattern in recent years. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/135 "2000-11-05T17:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Let’s clear some things up about Bush’s Fighter Pilot days. > > Finally, Bush volunteered for a tour of Vietnam. He was turned down because at that time they were only taking pilots with a minimum of 500 hours time in type, and Bush had 300. \*\* Are you sure that had nothing to do with the F-102 being obsolete as a front-line machine by that time? The type was never used there, as Bush certainly must have known, so even having 500 hours in it wouldn’t have gotten him sent. Of what significance is Bush’s “volunteering” for Vietnam, even if it happened? This is a guy who didn’t even fulfill a commitment when he volunteered for Alabama. Your defense of his basic intelligence is certainly apt, but it’s not the heart of the point. He’s smart, but lazy - a type I know well, and wouldn’t trust with anything significant. One’s character has little to do with one’s native intelligence, but it’s character (of which laziness is a part) that matters most in an executive job. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/136 "2000-11-05T19:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\* > As Scylla said, it is not about making women into victims. It is about abusing power, whether the abuser is a man or woman. And Stoidela, even if there are situations where the disparity in power between the parties is slight, you’re not suggesting this is one of them, correct? Is it even possible to envision a greater gap in power than this one, the Prez with an intern? > > BTW, I would come to the same conclusion even if both parties were men (thereby taking out any element of “victimizing” women). \*\* And I vehemently disagree with your (and Scylla’s) characterization of it as an “abuse of power”. I do not refer to _anytime_ and every time an older, more powerful man gets involved with a younger, less powerful woman (or man) but _this_ time. I think each instance has to be examined individually. I think Monica knew exactly what she was doing. I think Clinton was very foolish, self-indulgent, and emotionally immature to have allowed himself to get involved with her, but I do not in any way view it as sexual harassment or an abuse of power. In fact, how do you? What did he DO that could be called “harassing”, in what way did he “Abuse” his power? If this relationship is going to be condemned for the way he hurt Monica, then it would be condemnable completely outside the context of the White House. He is a much older man who is compellingly attractive to a silly, insecure young woman. She throws herself at him, he takes her up on it, a little, then backs out. Of course she was a little wounded, and of course he was a bit of a jerk. But there was no “abuse” of anyone or anything. There was no harassment of anyone. As a woman and a feminist, I am offended and fed up with the abuse of the terms “sexual harassment” and “rape” applied to perfectly normal situations between the sexes. It undermines what these terms are really referring to, demeans and victimizes women, and cheapens the very real experiences of true rape and sexual harassment that are going on every day. stoid annoid ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/137 "2000-11-05T19:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*Stoidela, Clinton has a daughter close to Lewinsky’s age. I wonder who HE’D blame were he to find out that Chelsea got involved with a 45 year old professor? I wonder who HE’D judge to be most at fault were he to find out that this professor was married and that Chelsea was the most recent of many affairs. \*\* That doesn’t make HIM right. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\* > He, as a father, a husband and one of the most powerful people in the freaking free world should have shown better judgment. \*\* Absolutely. That doesn’t mean he sexually harassed her. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/138 "2000-11-05T19:58:17Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I had it pointed out to me recently that these threads stay around a loooong time. I think you would do well to remember that as well. Bush was recently in NJ. Gore was recently in Tennesee. > > Who seems confident and who seems worried to you? > > \*\* Confident vs. worried doesn’t have any bearing on your use of the term “landslide”. Do you know what it means? Ain’t gonna happen. And why the hell should I care if threads stay around a long time? Even if they disappeared in a week, the election is in two days. Get over yourself. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/139 "2000-11-05T20:06:40Z")
\*\*ElvisL1ves \*\* > [@](#): > > Are you saying that a group of nuns in LA represented the Chinese government? Maybe you could fill me in on where all those nuns who had taken a vow poverty got all that money to donate. Here’s two more words for you: **Straw Donors** [The nuns described how Hsia asked Buddhist monastics to donate additional money to the Democratic National Committee a day after the luncheon. The temple reimbursed the nuns and monks for the $55,000 in donations they made as individuals to the DNC in violation of federal election law. It is illegal to disguise the true source of a donation.](http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/finance/ncfin077.htm) > [@](#): > > I remind you of Republican National Committee Chairman Haley Barbour taking a whole lot more Chinese money, NOT giving it back, and getting recommended for prosecution for it. So what? Throw him in jail. I am not defending every Republican that ever was. I thought we were talking about if Gore had ever lied. Let me sum this up for you in two words as well. **Straw Man** > [@](#): > > Re the “iced tea excuse”: As I asked before (and which is really the heart of the matter) Is that really the worst you can say about Gore with 8 years of material to work with? Hmmmm… Let’s see… Lying to the FBI, withholding evidence, accepting money from the Chinese government… It’s not really the **BEST** I could do, but it did seem like a good example of a serious Gore lie. What more do you want? Do you want to get into technology transfers to the Chinese that were reccomended against by every Federal Agencey, but yet Clinton approved the transfers anyway? I’m not trying to paint Gore with Clinton’s crimes, Gore was a willing lackey in these crimes. If he didn’t know what was going on, then he must have been stupid. **You decide** > [@](#): > > Call me “ignorant” if you like, but the evidence would seem to be much stronger for your being a liar, trying to hide it by calling someone else one. That’s been a too-typical Republican pattern in recent years. I’m seeing a lot of irrational behavior on the part of some of the democrats around here lately. It’s all right. I understand the panic feeling you have just thinking about 2 years under a Republican controlled government. I felt it in '92. Since you seem to feel that there is evidence that I am a liar, please quote me one shred of that evidence from up above that would indicate that I’m a liar. I am not a Republican. I am a Libertarian. It just happens that the Republicans line up with my beliefs more than the democrats. If you want to start a thread ripping apart crooked lying Republicans, go ahead. I think there is a lot of corruption in Washington on both sides of the aisle. So ElvisL1ves: **Panic Away** It’s alright with me. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2000, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485/140 "2000-11-05T20:12:52Z")
Stoid: Despite your protests to the contrary the Clinton/Lewinsky thing is not about feminism. It’s an unconscionable breach of ethics and fiduciary responsibility. There is a concept called integrity. By doing what he did, and the way he handled it after, Clinton has proven himself to be bankrupt in that area. I happen to agree with you {surprise surprise,} that the incident has little to do with rape or harassment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dubya-drivin-drunk-does-it-matter/39485.md?page=8)