# Duhbya's legacy. Corporate profits way up. Private income down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474 "2004-10-10T15:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/41 "2004-10-10T22:00:57Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Passed by that Bolshevik Congress in 1998. > > Presenting rational arguments to **milroyj** is like giving a pig a songbook. and [reauthorized by Republican controlled Congress, signed by George W. Bush](http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/108th/workforce/wia/wia.htm) The WIA has continued to be reauthorized. I agree w/the songbook, of course. But it was rather amusing to see his “rolleyes” and comment. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/42 "2004-10-10T22:18:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **milroyj** : \* “Workforce development meetings”? The mind boggles. They tried similiar policies in the Soviet Union, and we all know how well that worked out.\* > > Considering that the current Administration—which is the absolute poster child for a low-tax, laissez-faire, market-driven approach to jobs creation—has ended up being the first since Herbert Hoover’s actually to **lose** net jobs, I don’t think their supporters have too much room to sneer at other people’s attempts to deal with the problem. Which, of course, completely misses the point. We don’t need any FDR-style programs to deal with anything, including job creation. The market will take care of things, until your liberal friends start monkeying around with it. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/43 "2004-10-10T22:32:12Z")
‘Fair Trade’ will take care of any perceived unemployement woes. Yep. Couple that with a health dose of taxing the job-creators, and I don’t see how Kerry’s plan could possibly fail. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/44 "2004-10-10T22:34:55Z")
**milroyj** : Stop digging. The Workforce Investment Act, which has had **bipartisan** support, was most recently reauthorized by a Republican controlled congress. and signed by Bush. for your edification, the JTPA, (which WIA replaced) was coauthored by none other than Dan Quayle, and was considered to be the most significant accomplisment of his pre White house career. ([url-“[http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d097&querybd=@FIELD(FLD003+@4((@1(Sen+Quayle++Dan)](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d097&querybd=@FIELD(FLD003+@4((@1(Sen+Quayle++Dan)))+00935))”]cite, # 18 on the list ) the Workforce INvestment board which you scoffed so, up there, is the descendant of the “Private Industry Councils” of the JTPA. You might find this comment from [the home page of the National Association of Workforce Boards](http://www.nawb.org/) interesting. Or rather, others may find it interesting, you seem to simply rely on your inate intelligence, w/o researching the issue. Their mission (linked on the prior mentioned page) : > [@](#): > > NAWB believes that through the influence of committed private and public sector leadership, a high performance, quality workforce development system can be developed to meet the human resource needs of the competitive global economy that increasingly demands highly skilled workers. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/45 "2004-10-10T22:41:55Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > So, keep the blinders on, and when the day arrives that both your and my luck run out, remember which of us was here rubbing people’s faces in the dirt. Yea, you seem to be trying to rub my face in the dirt simply because I’m not blindly buying into the idea that the economy sucks just because you say so. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/46 "2004-10-10T22:45:05Z")
[fixed link for those too impaired to cut and paste.](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d097&querybd=@FIELD(FLD003+@4((@1(Sen+Quayle++Dan))+00935))) First it was “russian” then it was “FDR”. He musta missed it that it was most recently reauthorized by a Republican dominated Congress and White house. Wonder what he’ll use now. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/47 "2004-10-10T22:53:44Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Yea, you seem to be trying to rub my face in the dirt simply because I’m not blindly buying into the idea that the economy sucks just because you say so. IMHO, a misrepresentation. You offered up your personal observations as why you tend to think the economy is doing ok. Others have offered up theirs. So, if nothing else, if you believe that he’s suggesting that you should believe it’s crappy ‘just because he says so’, your offering was pretty much in the same vein ("This year I made a lot more money than ever before. You can bitch and whine about a poor economy to grind your particular political axe all you want, but out here where the rubber meets the road, you look like you’re full of it. ". ) I suggest that instead simply relying on your own personal observations of stuff around you, that you check out some other sources. Small business growth is not the only indicator, neither is unemployment data. I mentioned one of my sources is my local WDB, which focuses on employment/economic growth of the region in which I live. It includes data Unemployment data, new business growth data, educational data (for example, they recently commissioned a study to evaluate regional educational needs wrt future business needs). and again, please reflect on the sheer number of small businesses that would have to experience rather significant growth, to offset the numbers of large plant closings and other events that have a regional effect on the economy. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/48 "2004-10-10T23:02:17Z")
> [@wring](#): > > **milroyj** You might find this comment from [the home page of the National Association of Workforce Boards](http://www.nawb.org/) interesting. No, I don’t find it interesting, I find it disturbing, to say the least. How Orwellian is that phraseology? National Association of Workforce Boards? Sounds fascist, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/49 "2004-10-10T23:05:05Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > No, I don’t find it interesting, I find it disturbing, to say the least. How Orwellian is that phraseology? National Association of Workforce Boards? Sounds fascist, to me. So your complaint is about the name of the organization, and that alone is enough to discredit anything that they say. I like you milroyj. You’re thilly 😛 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/50 "2004-10-10T23:08:45Z")
My goodness, what a vocabulary you have. An association (group) of voluntary business leaders giving their time to help guide economic growth in their regions is fascist to you? Do you know what fascist means? well, to the rest of the reading (ie thinking) public -if you wish to find out what the local economic and jobs picture is in your area, these are the folks to ask. Their meetings are public. It helps give you more of an idea of the true nature of the economy and job market than snippets of data. YMMV. and, of course, some people aren’t at all interested in learning, either. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/51 "2004-10-10T23:09:53Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > So your complaint is about the name of the organization, and that alone is enough to discredit anything that they say. > > I like you milroyj. You’re thilly 😛 Nah, it’s not the name, thilly, it’s the political ideaolgy behind it. Why on God’s green earth would we need a National Association of Workforce Boards, for heaven’s sake? We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/52 "2004-10-10T23:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Yea, you seem to be trying to rub my face in the dirt simply because I’m not blindly buying into the idea that the economy sucks just because you say so. Good for you. But I’m still making half what I made last year. A friend of mine who is a trained phlebotomist, trained paralegal, and was a Black Hawk pilot with the 101st Airborne in the Gulf War is having to work for eight bucks an hour sewing uniforms because there are no other jobs. From the half of department whose jobs were given to Tata (India) last year, I know of _two_ who have gotten jobs: me, and one other guy. And we had to take jobs at a much lower salary. The point people have been trying to make is that while _you_ may be doing well, and people you work with may be doing well, that doesn’t make it true across the country. It’s said that “all politics are local”. Same with the economy, I think. And from my local viewpoint, the economy sucks. Let’s look at it another way: There has been a net job loss in this country of something like 800,000 jobs. There _have_ been jobs created. Mine was one of them. But the jobs that are created pay less than the jobs lost. Kerry says the salaries of the new jobs is an average of $9,000 less than the salaries of the lost jobs. In my case, I’m making $25,000 less. Now, who do you think contributes more to the economy? 800,000 people who lost their jobs and the couple-hundred thousand who are making less than they used to? Or the lower number of people who have gained revenue under this administration? I am contributing as little as possible to the economy; not because I want to, but because I’ struggling to make ends meet. I made $50,000 last year. This allowed me to go to restaurants and buy consumer items. This helped to keep The Chili Pepper, Black Angus, Tokyo Lobby, [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), The Easton Press, _et al_ profitable. Although I haven’t flown in a few years, I did rent helicopters when I was making more money. This helped to keep Group 3 Aviation profitable. It’s good for business when people buy things. Now I don’t go to restaurants. Now I don’t fly (although it’s killing me). Now I don’t buy consumer items. Now there are 800,000 people who are out of work, and 200,000 to 400,000 more who have taken lower-paying jobs, who are also not buying things. How is this good for the economy? I’d much rather have the $25,000/year I’m no longer making, than the $300 tax reduction I received. It would be better for me, and it would be better for the businesses I (used to) patronize. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/53 "2004-10-10T23:13:35Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Nah, it’s not the name, thilly, it’s the political ideaolgy behind it. Why on God’s green earth would we need a National Association of Workforce Boards, for heaven’s sake? We don’t. Of course not. Our current unprecedented productivity growth, low unemplpoyment rate, and downright staggering income equality, it appears that the “market” has everything well in hand. We ought to abolish this nonsensical association and increase our support for such libertarian-sounding agencies as the Department for Homeland Security. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/54 "2004-10-10T23:15:01Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > He wants to raise taxes on “rich” people (you know, like those evil small business owners that create most of the jobs)… > [@Brutus](#): > > Couple that with a health dose of taxing the job-creators… You know, it’s funny that I keep hearing about how these small businesses generate so many jobs for us, when [FactCheck.org](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=265.html) has this to say about the matter: > [@](#): > > **from [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)**: > \*…995,000 persons with “business income” (or business loss) would see a personal tax increase under Kerry’s plan… > > **The large majority have no employees aside from themselves.** Of the 487,000 who reported any business income on Schedule C, only 71,000 claimed deductions for wages – **fewer than 15%** … > > So – even accepting the 900,000 figure used in the Bush ad – that leaves more than **32 million “small businesses” not affected by an increase in the top rates on individuals**. > \* (emphasis mine) Yeah, I’m sure that the 15% of the fraction _of a fraction_ of all the small businesses in the U.S. generate an assload of jobs. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/55 "2004-10-10T23:15:31Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I’d much rather have the $25,000/year I’m no longer making, than the $300 tax reduction I received. It would be better for me, and it would be better for the businesses I (used to) patronize. And what makes you think that _sans_ tax-cut, you wouldn’t have lost your job? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/56 "2004-10-10T23:15:52Z")
> [@wring](#): > > IMHO, a misrepresentation. You offered up your personal observations as why you tend to think the economy is doing ok. Others have offered up theirs. So, if nothing else, if you believe that he’s suggesting that you should believe it’s crappy ‘just because he says so’, your offering was pretty much in the same vein ("This year I made a lot more money than ever before. You can bitch and whine about a poor economy to grind your particular political axe all you want, but out here where the rubber meets the road, you look like you’re full of it. > ". ) > > I suggest that instead simply relying on your own personal observations of stuff around you, that you check out some other sources. Small business growth is not the only indicator, neither is unemployment data. I mentioned one of my sources is my local WDB, which focuses on employment/economic growth of the region in which I live. It includes data Unemployment data, new business growth data, educational data (for example, they recently commissioned a study to evaluate regional educational needs wrt future business needs). Wring, I understand that, but I made it pretty clear that I was speaking anecdotally, didn’t I? Also notice that I never made any blanket statements about anything other than my personal experience, and indeed even posed a question to you. What part of all that is rubbing people’s nose in anything? > [@](#): > > and again, please reflect on the sheer number of small businesses that would have to experience rather significant growth, to offset the numbers of large plant closings and other events that have a regional effect on the economy. I understand that also, but Small Businesses are the only part of the economy that has grown consistently over the last 20 years. Overtaxing the only segment of the economy still growing in an attempt to fund the Government programs replacing benefits and jobs formerly offered by large corporations in the boom years of the Cold War seems to me to be a perfect recipe for killing off what is working in the name of saving something dying, rather than looking to find new solutions for a 21st century world economy. The class warfare aspect of the “tax the rich until they bleed” philosophy bugs me as well. When did working hard and making money become something that is deserving of scorn or make one an acceptable target for extra fiscal penalties? The majority of “rich” people I know (I don’t know any hyper-rich folks, but I do know a few millionaires and a number of people making several hundred K per year) work 40-80 hours a week or more. They are not debutants but hard workers who have gotten where they are through perseverance and effort. What about that makes them deserving of an extra tax burden other than it’s easy to hold them up to people not making as much money as legitimate targets, creating a perfect “us VS Them” mentality? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/57 "2004-10-10T23:18:22Z")
**milroyj:** \* The market will take care of things\* Chanting your market-fundamentalist mantra doesn’t change the facts. My point is that over the past four years, during one of the most conservative, anti-government, pro-market, low-tax, laissez-faire Administrations we’ve had for decades, the economy actually **lost** net jobs—for the first time since the Hoover Administration. And in addition, job quality, wages, benefits, and household income for the average worker are stagnant or declining. Obviously, the market is **not** taking care of things as far as many struggling people are concerned. **Wd:** _Yea, you seem to be trying to rub my face in the dirt simply because I’m not blindly buying into the idea that the economy sucks just because you say so._ Dude, we’ve provided several links and summaries of economic data to **support** the contention that the economy does in fact have some serious problems. Nobody’s asking you to be concerned about the economy just because a few individuals say so, but I think you **ought** to be concerned about it when the **data** says so. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/58 "2004-10-10T23:19:48Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Of course not. Our current unprecedented productivity growth, low unemplpoyment rate, and downright staggering income equality, it appears that the “market” has everything well in hand. We ought to abolish this nonsensical association and increase our support for such libertarian-sounding agencies as the Department for Homeland Security. Why yes, productivity is up, and unemployment is near the “natural” rate for our economy. Thanks for asking! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/59 "2004-10-10T23:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Only 49% of them actually got most of their income from business (485,000 of them). So fuck them? You realize that if being in business for themselves stops panning out, you are going to be competing with them for jobs, right? (And that is ignoring the true nature of small business, with people being payed in cash, owners not taking an incime for themselves, et cetera.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/60 "2004-10-10T23:22:41Z")
> [@](#): > > And what makes you think that _sans_ tax-cut, you wouldn’t have lost your job? The problems with the economy also include the outsourcing of jobs. If incentives were given to companies to keep jobs within the country, then companies would be less likely to outsource. Instead, companies receive incentives to send jobs overseas. The fact is that starting in 2002, my former company started hiring “consultants” from Tata. When Tata’s “consultants” started taking over the jobs, people were laid off. Thus it’s likely that if outsourcing were not encouraged, I and many others would not have lost our jobs. If fewer people lost their jobs, there would be less competition for low-paying jobs. The people who kept their jobs would be contributing more to the economy, and the people who did not have jobs before and who took the lower-paying jobs would be contributing to the economy. Instead, we have a net loss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474.md?page=4)