# Duhbya's legacy. Corporate profits way up. Private income down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474 "2004-10-10T15:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/61 "2004-10-10T23:23:38Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Wring, I understand that, but I made it pretty clear that I was speaking anecdotally, didn’t I? Also notice that I never made any blanket statements about anything other than my personal experience, and indeed even posed a question to you. What part of all that is rubbing people’s nose in anything? that would be this part: (quoting you from first page) > [@](#): > > This year I made a lot more money than ever before. You can bitch and whine about a poor economy to grind your particular political axe all you want, but out here where the rubber meets the road, you look like you’re full of it. suggesting that people are bitching ‘whining’ about the economy as a political ax to grind (vs., say a painful economic reality for them) and suggesting that since ‘here where the rubber meets the road’ (ie in your corner’) they’re full of it. I’d interpret that as “rubbing your nose in it”. Yep, sure would. YMOV. > [@](#): > > I understand that also, but and I suggested that the snippet you focused on was one small part of the overall picture. And suggested some other pieces of data to look at to get a larger view. Obviously up to you if you wish to. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/62 "2004-10-10T23:32:48Z")
**Wd:** _Overtaxing the only segment of the economy still growing in an attempt to fund the Government programs replacing benefits and jobs formerly offered by large corporations in the boom years of the Cold War seems to me to be a perfect recipe for killing off what is working in the name of saving something dying, rather than looking to find new solutions for a 21st century world economy._ Nobody’s suggesting an increase in taxes on small businesses, as far as I know. It’s the personal income tax of those with the highest incomes that’s targeted for an increase. - The class warfare aspect of the “tax the rich until they bleed” philosophy bugs me as well. When did working hard and making money become something that is deserving of scorn or make one an acceptable target for extra fiscal penalties?\* This is empty rhetoric. Nobody around here (except maybe **Reeder** with his “crony” theories) is advocating class warfare or saying that we should “scorn” the rich. All we’re pointing out is that the current tax policies are bleeding the Treasury white, our national deficits and debt are unsustainable, and we can most painlessly and most efficiently restore some of the revenue by a modest tax increase on the segment of the population whose incomes have been increasing the most lavishly. - The majority of “rich” people I know (I don’t know any hyper-rich folks, but I do know a few millionaires and a number of people making several hundred K per year) work 40-80 hours a week or more. They are not debutants but hard workers who have gotten where they are through perseverance and effort.\* The majority of non-rich people I know also work 40-80 hours a week or more, and they put in a lot of perseverance and effort too. I don’t see why they are not as deserving of the basic amenities of life—decent housing, healthcare, education, social services, steady employment—as the people whose 40-80 hour weeks happen to net them incomes several thousands or tens of thousands of times greater. _What about that makes them deserving of an extra tax burden other than it’s easy to hold them up to people not making as much money as legitimate targets, creating a perfect “us VS Them” mentality?_ More empty rhetoric. Actually, more progressive taxation and less income inequality actually **diminishes** the “us vs. them” mentality. It’s when the rich are prospering marvelously and the non-rich are struggling desperately that class antagonism gets really ugly, as **Knorf** pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/63 "2004-10-10T23:33:16Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > So fuck them? You realize that if being in business for themselves stops panning out, you are going to be competing with them for jobs, right? Wow, Brutus-- way to miss the point. I posted that information to destroy the lame argument that “these small businesses generate a lot of jobs!” Did I say “fuck them”? No. I also don’t say “fuck anyone who makes over $200,000 a year! Ha HA!” Kerry’s plan calls for selective rollbacks of Bush’s Tax Cuts. My guess would be, that a small business that has their tax cut rolled back will be affected as much as an individual making over $200,000/year having their tax cut rolled back. So, the top 1% of individuals will be affected by the roll backs, and 3% of “small businesses” (the ones, I would guess, in a higher tax bracket) will be affected by the roll backs. Personally, I wouldn’t expect these roll backs to throw most of the small business owners out on the street; I’m sure Bush would like me to think so, however. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/64 "2004-10-10T23:34:18Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > The problems with the economy also include the outsourcing of jobs. If incentives were given to companies to keep jobs within the country, then companies would be less likely to outsource. Instead, companies receive incentives to send jobs overseas. European companies have ‘incentives’ (tax penalities) to encourage them to stay at home, but that sort of protectionism hasn’t helped the unemployment rate in the bigger nations over there. Last I heard, the unemployment rates in France and Germany were over 9%. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/65 "2004-10-10T23:38:01Z")
Nice ploy, calling tax increases “tax cut rollbacks”, btw. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/66 "2004-10-10T23:40:08Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Why yes, productivity is up, and unemployment is near the “natural” rate for our economy. Thanks for asking! I wasn’t asking. I would be happy to take this opportunity to relieve you of your errors. A quick trip to the Bureau of Labor Statistics reveals: > [@](#): > > The productivity increase marks a deceleration > from the increases posted during the four quarters of 2003 and the first > quarter of 2004; it is the smallest increase since a 1.2-percent rise was > posted in the fourth quarter of 2002 (seasonally adjusted annual rates). I do not think we even have to discuss the disgraceful slide of real hourly compensation in both business and in the manfucturing sectors. As for the unemployment rate approaching natural, this is also nonsensical. Persons are only considered “unemployed” if: > [@](#): > > They had no employment during the reference week; they were > available for work at that time; and they made specific efforts to find > employment sometime during the 4-week period ending with the reference > week. These criteria are so loose that many individuals surveyed are classified as no longer in the labor force. The unemployment rate, of course, is: > [@](#): > > The unemployment rate is the number unemployed as a percent > of the labor force. A more instructive statistic in this context is the employment-population ratio, the employed as a percentage of the entire population. This is a dismal (and _unchanged_) 62.3%. We are really chugging away. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/67 "2004-10-10T23:42:37Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Nice ploy, calling tax increases “tax cut rollbacks”, btw. :dubious: Almost as good a ploy as calling tax cuts a “stimulus.” This last one worked splendidly. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/68 "2004-10-10T23:43:34Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Nice ploy, calling tax increases “tax cut rollbacks”, btw. Nice ploy, slectively reading what you want to hear, and constructing strawman arguments. :dubious: You know what else is a “nice ploy”? The term “tax relief”; it automatically causes the reader/listener/audience to associate taxes with evil. But hey, whatever works, right? LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/69 "2004-10-10T23:49:15Z")
**Brutus:** _Last I heard, the unemployment rates in France and Germany were over 9%._ As of [url=“[http://www.oecd.org/document/43/0,2340,en\_2649\_33715\_33703595\_1\_1\_1\_1,00.html](http://www.oecd.org/document/43/0,2340,en_2649_33715_33703595_1_1_1_1,00.html)”]September 2004, though, the rates in three other EU countries were under 5%, and in three others lower than 7%. Bear in mind also that a lot of people would prefer to spend more time unemployed with decent unemployment benefits, housing, transportation, education, healthcare, etc., than get out of unemployment faster with a $7-an-hour job that doesn’t stop them from dragging ever deeper into debt and losing their apartment, car, and health insurance. **milroyj:** _Nice ploy, calling tax increases “tax cut rollbacks”, btw._ That’s what they are. The tax is being raised to where it was (or slightly lower than where it was) before the current Administration’s tax cuts. In other words, those tax cuts are being rolled back. In fact, at present they’re scheduled to roll back **automatically** after the “sunset” date, unless new legistlation is passed to prolong them. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/70 "2004-10-10T23:50:03Z")
Thanks, **Maeglin** for providing the statistics that productivity is increasing, which is what I said in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/71 "2004-10-10T23:51:55Z")
Speaking “anecdotally”, I still have my job, and my pay is still the same. However, I know plenty of people who were laid off. Those who got new jobs ended up with less pay and less benefits. Many got caught in a new wrinkle. Their employers made sure they never quite got 40 hours a week. That way, they would be listed as part time, and got no benefits at all. These same employers would deliberately juggle the schedules so nobody ever got their full time work week. I see this as being a lot of “small businesses” taking advantage of a bad situation. However, no matter how bad it gets, the boss always gets his money and gives himself nice “bonuses and presents”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/72 "2004-10-10T23:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > European companies have ‘incentives’ (tax penalities) to encourage them to stay at home, but that sort of protectionism hasn’t helped the unemployment rate in the bigger nations over there. Last I heard, the unemployment rates in France and Germany were over 9%. Ohhhhh, I see! You’re saying my former company _didn’t_ find the government’s encouragement of outsourcing to overseas companies advantageous, and _didn’t_ benefit from them. They didn’t _actually_ contract with Tata, and Tata’s employees _didn’t_ take over our work. Half of the programmers, half of my department, and half or better of other departments _didn’t_ get laid off when Tata came on board! You’re saying I’m _really not_ working for half of my previous salary, and I _really am_ contributing to the economy! And we actually have _more_ jobs since we don’t have this “protectionism”. Gosh, I feel so much better! :rolleyes: You can say what you want, but _I’m_ worse off than I was four years ago; and so are hundreds of thousands or millions of others. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/73 "2004-10-10T23:53:14Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Thanks, **Maeglin** for providing the statistics that productivity is increasing, which is what I said in the first place. Perhaps there is something about the word _deceleration_ that confuses you? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/74 "2004-10-10T23:54:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s what they are. The tax is being raised to where it was (or slightly lower than where it was) before the current Administration’s tax cuts. In other words, those tax cuts are being rolled back. In fact, at present they’re scheduled to roll back **automatically** after the “sunset” date, unless new legistlation is passed to prolong them. You sure are fond of raising other people’s taxes, why is that? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/75 "2004-10-10T23:57:04Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Perhaps there is something about the word _deceleration_ that confuses you? Nothing confuses me about the word decleration, but your contention that productivity has decreased is a bald-faced lie. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/76 "2004-10-10T23:59:12Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Nothing confuses me about the word decleration, but your contention that productivity has decreased is a bald-faced lie. Other than the spelling, I guess. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/77 "2004-10-11T00:03:08Z")
**Brutus** , **Weirddave** , **milroyj** — Listen to yourselves here. It’s not leftist “soak the rich” class-warfare rhetoric that’s provoking anger and resentment. It’s the fact that **so many people are genuinely struggling economically** , and when a few of them bitch about it, you’re shrugging them off with accusations that they’re just “grinding political axes” and “scorning the rich” and “taxing the rich until they bleed” and “bitching and whining” and “full of it” and all that. Basically, you seem to be saying that a small tax increase on the most prosperous, who have been growing richer fastest, is a more serious problem, and less acceptable, than the longer employment searches, lower-quality jobs, disappearing benefits, greater indebtedness, and shrinking incomes of the average worker. Nobody wants class warfare. But in fact, you’re shortsightedly doing all you can to encourage it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/78 "2004-10-11T00:04:42Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Nothing confuses me about the word decleration, but your contention that productivity has decreased is a bald-faced lie. I never said anything of the sort. I didn’t have to. I simply quoted the BLS’ testimony as to the contraction of productivity growth. Productivity growth is lower this quarter than it has been since 2002. Perhaps something confuses you about the word _lie_? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/79 "2004-10-11T00:06:09Z")
**milroyj:** _your contention that productivity has decreased is a bald-faced lie._ **Maeglin** didn’t contend that “productivity has decreased.” What he said (via a sarcastic inversion) is that we don’t have **unprecedented** productivity growth. And that’s true, we don’t, because productivity growth has been dropping. (Productivity itself continues to increase, but the rate of productivity growth is slowing—that’s the “deceleration” part.) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474/80 "2004-10-11T00:08:39Z")
> [@Spree](#): > > **WeirdDave** > But your statement was way the fuck out of line. I’m not full of jack shit except frustration at the state of the economy today. Weirddave loves to criticize and talk out of his ass. He will speak the Bush party line as if it was reality. His delusions are so fucking deep, they could be mistaken for oceans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duhbyas-legacy-corporate-profits-way-up-private-income-down/268474.md?page=5)