# Duke Lacrosse, DSK, Trayvon Martin ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952 "2012-03-27T15:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/81 "2012-03-28T03:51:22Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Like I said, I’ve lived around beasts like Rodney King. Apparently, you haven’t. It makes a helluva difference in one’s perspective. Thanks for making it clear what you think of black people. What is it about them that upsets you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/82 "2012-03-28T03:52:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The cops didn’t beat King “just for fun.” Of course not. Such a thing could never happen, perish the thought. > [@](#): > > Because of his bizarre behavior, they believed that King was on PCP, which (if you have any familiarity with this drug at all) would likely have made him extremely dangerous to deal with. But he wasn’t on PCP. Even if he was on PCP, I am not sure why several of them had to beat and kick the shit out of him with clubs when he was already on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/83 "2012-03-28T03:56:42Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Tell ya what, spooje. Let’s light you up, and see if you consider it a trivial, unimportant incident. This is inappropriate. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/84 "2012-03-28T04:00:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Perhaps because the shooter was not as clearly the aggressor in that case. Was the shooter clearly the aggressor in the Martin case? Since you’ve demonstrated that you are not up to speed with the facts I should tell you that a witness [corroborates Zimmerman’s account](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/26/MN0R1NQC9D.DTL) that Martin punched Zimmerman and beat his head into the sidewalk repeatedly. That seems worse to me than being drunk on a guy’s porch. Care to try again? > [@Marley23](#): > > Unlike Martin, three of the five were committing crimes (robbery or assault) when they were shot. That’s a huge difference. The other two cases are tragic misunderstandings that are the result of a poorly-written law, but they are cases where a reasonable person might have thought a burglar was around: they victims were knocking on someone’s door in the middle of the night. Trayvon Martin was walking unarmed through someone else’s neighborhood. The Trayvon Martin case may turn out to be nothing more than a tragic misunderstanding. Zimmerman belives Martin is a burglar and follows Martin. Maybe they exchange words or Martin notices Zimmerman following him and beats the shit out of Zimmerman. Zimmerman may actually fear for his life and shoots Martin. The point is that none of those cases made national headlines. The press jumped to conclusions in the Martin case and tried to spin this as a racist who shot an unarmed black kid unprovoked. > [@Marley23](#): > > Two of these are similar to the shooting of Bo Morrison, but none are similar to Trayvon Martin- there’s no pursuit by the shooter. The shooters in those cases shot first and asked questions later but at least they could say they were in their own homes and had a reason to be worried about someone trying to break in. And Zimmerman had reason to worry about his head being split open. You seem to think Zimmerman pursued Martin and just shot him for being black. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, it really isn’t. It’s a fact, and journalism is not about withholding information. I am not sure how you think race would have stayed a secret when Trayvon Martin’s family was attempting publicly to draw attention to the case. This is not about keeping the race “secret”…although the media does it all the time to avoid having to describe black criminals by race. The point is that the media is directing the narrative by pointing out their races, for no reason, before all of the facts are known. > [@Marley23](#): > > Like I said: the more often you post twaddle like “wake up” and “take your blinders off” and “get a clue,” the more it looks like you’re trying to win on bluster instead of logic. I was going to say the same about your lame attempt at sarcasm. Of course sarcasm may be a last resort if you do not have the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/85 "2012-03-28T04:23:24Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Was the shooter clearly the aggressor in the Martin case? Since you’ve demonstrated that you are not up to speed with the facts I should tell you that a witness [corroborates Zimmerman’s account](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/26/MN0R1NQC9D.DTL) that Martin punched Zimmerman and beat his head into the sidewalk repeatedly. That seems worse to me than being drunk on a guy’s porch. Care to try again? Utter bullshit. No one “corroborates” Zimmerman’s account that Martin threw the first punch. One person, who refuses to be identified and who hasn’t been examined to see if he’d be credible, claims that at one point Martin had gotten the better of Zimmerman and was on top of him. That’s vastly different from corroborating claims that Martin threw the first punch. > [@](#): > > You seem to think Zimmerman pursued Martin and just shot him for being black. When someone complains about “fucking coons” and is extremely paranoid about young black men that’s a reasonable belief. > [@](#): > > And Zimmerman had reason to worry about his head being split open. We have no reason to believe that other than the word of a liar, who’s an obvious racist, with a history of violence and animosity towards young black males, who has every reason to lie to the police who clearly want to believe that this was a case of an innocent white man killing an evil black man in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/86 "2012-03-28T05:08:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Utter bullshit. > > No one “corroborates” Zimmerman’s account that Martin threw the first punch. One person, who refuses to be identified and who hasn’t been examined to see if he’d be credible, claims that at one point Martin had gotten the better of Zimmerman and was on top of him. > > That’s vastly different from corroborating claims that Martin threw the first punch. > > When someone complains about “fucking coons” and is extremely paranoid about young black men that’s a reasonable belief. > > We have no reason to believe that other than the word of a liar, who’s an obvious racist, with a history of violence and animosity towards young black males, who has every reason to lie to the police who clearly want to believe that this was a case of an innocent white man killing an evil black man in self-defense. Wow! I am absolutely amazed that you can quote me and then totally misread what I actually wrote. That’s talent. At any rate, I have already responded to the statements you think I made upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/87 "2012-03-28T05:14:44Z")
I can only speak for myself, but I stated [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13976840&postcount=307) and elsewhere that I didn’t know who was lying and who wasn’t in the DKS case, and I paid so little attention to the details of the Duke case I didn’t even make a comment on it. I am firmly in the “Zimmerman is a murderer” camp and I can assure you it has nothing to do with “liberal white guilt” (which, frankly, I have next to none of) but because I honestly can’t understand how anybody could think it otherwise given Zimmerman’s history, the fact he had a gun and Martin had a pack of Skittles, the fact he clearly initiated the encounter, and the absolute lack of evidence or logic to prove that it was at all necessary for him to shoot an unarmed kid. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/88 "2012-03-28T05:21:12Z")
ETA: I live in a city that is more than 50% black, my neighbors on either side in my current middle class neighborhood are black, for years I lived in a lower-middle class black neighborhood, and I have been robbed by thieves who were black. I have had many great intelligent hard working friends who were black, I have known many black people who were among the sorriest stupidest people ever to take up space that could be better used by rabid wolverines, and most blacks I have known were in the middle. I have witnessed racism against blacks and by blacks. I really am capable of judging a case on its own merits and not by kneejerk “He’s black, he’s gotta be innocent” (or “he’s gotta be guilty”) and resent the implications to the contrary. (Frankly I’m a lot more prejudiced against rich people than I am against my own or any other race; if I didn’t jump to conclusions on DSK based on the fact he’s a rich asshole I’m not likely to on Zimmerman-Martin based on their races.) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/89 "2012-03-28T05:40:21Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Wow! I am absolutely amazed that you can quote me and then totally misread what I actually wrote. Bullshit. Show where I “misread” you. You moronically have insisted that witnesses have “corroborated” Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon attacked him. Name the witnesses who’ve claimed that. The closest you have is “Jonh” who claims at one point Trayvon had gotten the best of Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/90 "2012-03-28T14:43:49Z")
Here’s the latest story from the media’s hunt for the Great White Defendant: > **[Iraqi Immigrants in California Town Fear a Hate Crime in a Woman’s Killing...](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/killing-of-iraqi-woman-leaves-immigrant-community-shaken.html)** > > Iraqi immigrants in El Cajon, Calif., say the death of Shaima Alawadi, 32, has exposed long-simmering cultural tensions and distrust. > [@](#): > > EL CAJON, Calif. — Shaima Alawadi’s family says they found the first note taped to the front door of their house on a quiet suburban street here. It said: “This is my country. Go back to yours, terrorist,” according to her 15-year-old son, Mohammed. > > Ms. Alawadi’s husband, Kassim Alhimidi, says he wanted to call the police. But his wife said no, insisting the note was only a child’s prank. Like many others in the neighborhood, the couple were immigrants from Iraq. In 17 years in the United States, they had been called terrorists before, he said. > > But last Wednesday, Ms. Alawadi was found in the family’s dining room by her 17-year-daughter, lying unconscious in a puddle of blood with a severe head wound. Nearby lay another threatening note, similar to the one the family found a week earlier. > > Ms. Alawadi, 32, died three days later. The police caution against jumping to conclusions, saying they are still trying to determine whether she was targeted because of her religion or ethnicity, calling that just one possibility. Anyone else find the family’s claims suspicious, or are we all on board with hunt for the white racist killer? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/91 "2012-03-28T14:44:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit. > > Show where I “misread” you. > > You moronically have insisted that witnesses have “corroborated” Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon attacked him. > > Name the witnesses who’ve claimed that. The closest you have is “Jonh” who claims at one point Trayvon had gotten the best of Zimmerman. Try reading for comprehension. I never said Martin threw the first punch. I said, and linked to an article that confirms, that witnesses saw Martin beating Zimmerman. My understanding is that nobody saw what started the fight. I said that Zimmerman had reason to worry about his head being split open. Judging by the broken nose and injuries to the back of his head I’d say that’s a real possibility…regardless of who started the fight. Your response is that the only evidence of this is from Zimmerman. At least one witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. Another anonymous witness says Martin attacked Zimmerman. Only time will, hopefully, tell what really happened that night. Jumping to angry conclusions about racist whites shooting innocent blacks doesn’t add anything to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/92 "2012-03-28T14:47:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thanks for making it clear what you think of black people. > > What is it about them that upsets you? I was making clear what I think of thugs like Rodney King, not black people in general. But, hey, you go right on believing that I hate everybody who isn’t white if that makes you feel better. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/93 "2012-03-28T14:48:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is inappropriate. Don’t do it again. My apologies. I was clearly out of line. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/94 "2012-03-28T15:03:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course not. Such a thing could never happen, perish the thought. > But he wasn’t on PCP. Even if he was on PCP, I am not sure why several of them had to beat and kick the shit out of him with clubs when he was already on the ground. Because PCP (which was popular at the time) can make its user insanely violent and put them in such a frenzy that he will not even notice serious, painful injuries. I don’t know, maybe you really do believe the cops were just beating him for fun, but everything I’ve read about the incident indicates they were frightened because they thought they were dealing with a violently out of control lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/95 "2012-03-28T15:14:23Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Was the shooter clearly the aggressor in the Martin case? Yes. He followed Martin after the police advised him not to. According to witnesses, Martin saw this and was not happy about it. Ironically you could call that self-defense since he was being followed by a guy with a gun. > [@](#): > > Care to try again? I was already aware of that, so no, I don’t. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman belives Martin is a burglar and follows Martin. His basis for that suspicion, of course, was nothing. > [@](#): > > Maybe they exchange words or Martin notices Zimmerman following him and beats the shit out of Zimmerman. Zimmerman may actually fear for his life and shoots Martin. Yes, I think that’s plausible. Unfortunately it’s still true that one choice precipitated whatever happened: Zimmerman following Martin with a gun. If he’d called the police and let them handle it, it’s very unlikely anybody would be dead. As it was, it’s possible that from Martin’s point of view, he was being followed or was confronted by a stranger for no particular reason and he may have felt threatened himself. > [@](#): > > The press jumped to conclusions in the Martin case and tried to spin this as a racist who shot an unarmed black kid unprovoked. Still waiting on the logic here. > [@](#): > > You seem to think Zimmerman pursued Martin and just shot him for being black. I think he did _pursue_ him for being black, since there’s evidence for that theory and no other reason has been presented. I’ve specifically avoided saying he shot him just because he’s black. However his decision to pursue Martin set this sequence of events in motion. > [@](#): > > The point is that the media is directing the narrative by pointing out their races, for no reason, before all of the facts are known. Your point is illogical and absurd. Let’s evaluate it: the Martin family has been making public statements and attending public events to draw attention to their cause, so it’s not as simple as not mentioning that the victim was black in a story. The press also should not have taken any pictures of them speaking and should not have used any video footage of them. They should have gone to those lengths because we don’t know that race was a factor here, and if it has not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt in a made-up-court-that-evaluates-whether-facts-are-relevant, facts should always be left out of a story. That’s how the public is informed. George Zimmerman had a mug shot on file with the police, so I’m not sure how his race was supposed to say secret either. > [@yorick73](#): > > I said that Zimmerman had reason to worry about his head being split open. Since Martin was being followed, he also had something to worry about. And if he’d known he was being followed by a guy with a gun, he’d have known he had even more to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/96 "2012-03-28T15:25:32Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Try reading for comprehension. I never said Martin threw the first punch. I said, and linked to an article that confirms, that witnesses saw Martin beating Zimmerman. My understanding is that nobody saw what started the fight. > > I said that Zimmerman had reason to worry about his head being split open. Judging by the broken nose and injuries to the back of his head I’d say that’s a real possibility…regardless of who started the fight. Your response is that the only evidence of this is from Zimmerman. At least one witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. Another anonymous witness says Martin attacked Zimmerman. Only time will, hopefully, tell what really happened that night. Jumping to angry conclusions about racist whites shooting innocent blacks doesn’t add anything to the discussion. How do you know Zimmerman had a broken nose? Only his lawyer has claimed that and the police didn’t take photos of any alleged injuries that night as they’re supposed to. Also, where is this witness who claims they saw Martin attack Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/97 "2012-03-28T15:50:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How do you know Zimmerman had a broken nose? > > Only his lawyer has claimed that and the police didn’t take photos of any alleged injuries that night as they’re supposed to. > > Also, where is this witness who claims they saw Martin attack Zimmerman? You are correct that his attorney said that. I would assume that the police would have taken pictures but I don’t know. I have no idea where the anonymous witness is. I assume he wants to remain anonymous for a reason… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/98 "2012-03-28T17:47:31Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I have no idea where the anonymous witness is. I assume he wants to remain anonymous for a reason… Show me where someone other than Zimmerman claims Trayvon threw the first punch. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/99 "2012-03-28T17:52:22Z")
We do know that the lead homicide detective says he was not fully convinced by Zimmerman’s version of the events that lead to the shooting. The actual truth is probably only going to get harder to figure out at this late date. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952/100 "2012-03-29T00:42:39Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > … Of course, journalist Selwyn Duke investigated the incident further and [uncovered a pattern of harassment against white students at the local high school](http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/was_boy_in_kc_fire_attack_a_victim_of_his_schools_racist_teaching.html), which seems to have been aided and abetted by the teachers. … and, > [@](#): > > … Where would a teacher get the idea that all whites are responsible for the Jasper tragedy? {The “Jasper Tragedy™” AKA the murder of James Byrd Jr} It’s not hard to figure out. Black liberation theology (BLT) instructs, writes the man some regard as its father, Professor James Cone, that “[a]ll white men are responsible for white oppression.” And how common is BLT? Well, Cone’s books were required reading at Barack Obama’s longtime house of worship in Chicago, Trinity United Church of Christ. …[RIGHT]{Dark Red}= **CMC** [/RIGHT] Nah, no agenda in that bit of “journalism” at all! CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-lacrosse-dsk-trayvon-martin/616952.md?page=6)