# Duke university asking for trouble on rape **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946 "2014-06-03T18:40:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/1 "2014-06-03T18:40:08Z")
I think Duke is most famous for its false rape accusations, the famous one a few years ago, and they were sued for a very large amount of money after 88 of the faculty wrote a letter condemning the defendants and the dean said they must be guilty and some teachers refused to teach them and so on. You might think they would have learned a lesson from that. All in the past, lesson learned, staff changed, but no. The current Dean of Student Affairs, I’m not sure if it’s the same one who declared the lacrosse players guilty, has this to say: “Assuming it is a male and female, it is the responsibility in the case of the male to gain consent before proceeding with sex.” That’s a Title IX violation. Then there’s [this](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/06/02/judge-blocks-expulsion-of-duke-student-accused-of-sexual-misconduct/):\* ““[W]hen Mr. McLeod’s representative asked for a copy of the policy, Dean Stephen Bryan slammed the door in Mr. McLeod’s face and said, ‘You can get it when you sue us,’” according to the complaint.”\* They’ve learned nothing and I hope it costs them another fortune. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/2 "2014-06-03T18:50:08Z")
Have you ever noticed that everyone’s out to get you? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/3 "2014-06-03T18:50:27Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The current Dean of Student Affairs, I’m not sure if it’s the same one who declared the lacrosse players guilty, has this to say: “Assuming it is a male and female, it is the responsibility in the case of the male to gain consent before proceeding with sex.” Yes, that’s completely wrong. It is the responsibility of the person _seeking sex_ to gain consent from the other person before proceeding with sex. The gender(s) of the persons involved are not relevant to the ethical behavior required (though I concur that in real life, statistically speaking, when one partner is more reluctant about having sex than the other, the gender distribution of the seeking partner vs. the consenting partner probably winds up being pretty asymmetrical). ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/4 "2014-06-03T20:47:32Z")
So, someone at Duke worded something badly. And for that, they should be sued into oblivion. Yet, the groups you support repeatedly call for firebombing courthouses and killing women, and that isn’t a reflection on you or your beliefs. Also, this misstatement by an unnamed person at Duke is a bigger deal to you than the many many MANY rapes that go unpunished in universities. Your movement is irrelevant. YOU are irrelevant. Your complaints stupid at best, and sociopathic at worst. The only people who aren’t laughing at you are the tiny minority of morons on your side. Equality is coming, whether you like it or not\*. You are stupid. I hope you jam your finger in a car door. \*and yes, I realize you consider yourself a champion of equality, but in this, as with everything else, you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/5 "2014-06-03T23:16:01Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > So, someone at Duke worded something badly. And for that, they should be sued into oblivion. I don’t think Duke should be sued into oblivion. But I do think that Mr. McLeod has a fair case against the University. He alleges that they are trying to expel him, which is a pretty serious sanction for them to impose, after taking roughly $250,000 of his money. And they’re doing it as the result of an investigation that didn’t include basic elements of fairness. Duke cannot simply arbitrarily – or nearly arbitrarily – expel a student, says he. They don’t need to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, of course, but he says they need to permit basic fairness in their fact-finding. These elements include the consideration by the hearing panel of statements allegedly made by anonymous witnesses. McLeod was not permitted to ask any questions of these witnesses, whose testimony was provided to the hearing panel by an investigator who recalled his conversations with them. A witness who appeared at the hearing to testify on behalf of McLeod was told to leave, and was not permitted to testify. For what it’s worth, I agree with him: if what he alleges about the anonymous witnesses is true, then Duke has breached their contract with him. Do you not agree? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/6 "2014-06-03T23:43:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For what it’s worth, I agree with him: if what he alleges about the anonymous witnesses is true, then Duke has breached their contract with him. > > Do you not agree? Serious question: how could I possibly agree or disagree without having seen the contract they supposedly breached? I mean, if it includes a “we reserve the right to expel students at our sole discretion” clause, then of course I don’t agree. If it includes a “we promise any student a fair and impartial hearing before implementing any discipline,” then I might agree. If it includes a clause that says, “we will always value the safety of a community member first and may expel anyone suspected of committing sexual assault,” then I don’t agree. What’s the nature of this contract you say they’ve breached? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/7 "2014-06-03T23:46:45Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > I think Duke is most famous for its false rape accusations No. Duke is most famous for their men’s basketball team. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/8 "2014-06-04T00:06:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Mr. McLeod’s complaint claims that the panel failed to interview — or permit testimony — from key witnesses, including fraternity brothers at the house that night, while relying on a second-hand account of an anonymous witness. It also alleged that Duke discouraged him from seeking legal advice and expelled him under an unpublished policy. > > “[W]hen Mr. McLeod’s representative asked for a copy of the policy, Dean Stephen Bryan slammed the door in Mr. McLeod’s face and said, ‘You can get it when you sue us,’” according to the complaint. Was he on super-secret probation? There is so much that is fucked about this. How can anyone follow the rules of a policy that is unpublished? Denying him a copy even when it’s used to as the justification to expel him? I do not know any of the particulars other than what is in the article, but Duke’s hearing seems laughable. A _second-hand account of an anonymous witness_ (not the alleged victim)? Denying any witnesses on the behalf of the accused? I mean, even if you have made up your mind to expel the kid before hand, nothing can be gained by denying his witness’s testimony. I have to think that Duke’s lawyers used the phrase ‘you shoulda talked to us before you did this’ a number of times. Was the ‘witness’ anonymous the reporter or to the accused? or both? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/9 "2014-06-04T00:10:03Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Your movement is irrelevant. YOU are irrelevant. Your complaints stupid at best, and sociopathic at worst. The only people who aren’t laughing at you are the tiny minority of morons on your side. Equality is coming, whether you like it or not\*. > > You are stupid. I hope you jam your finger in a car door. > \*and yes, I realize you consider yourself a champion of equality, but in this, as with everything else, you are wrong. Is there some background with the OP that I’m missing which might help explain this post? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/10 "2014-06-04T00:23:46Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Is there some background with the OP that I’m missing which might help explain this post? MRA, Elliot Rodger shootings not misogynist, feminists bad, men are the real victims, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/11 "2014-06-04T00:26:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Serious question: how could I possibly agree or disagree without having seen the contract they supposedly breached? I mean, if it includes a “we reserve the right to expel students at our sole discretion” clause, then of course I don’t agree. If it includes a “we promise any student a fair and impartial hearing before implementing any discipline,” then I might agree. If it includes a clause that says, “we will always value the safety of a community member first and may expel anyone suspected of committing sexual assault,” then I don’t agree. > > What’s the nature of this contract you say they’ve breached? The Duke University [Duke Community Standard in Practice](https://studentaffairs.duke.edu/sites/default/files/DCS%20Guide%202012-13.pdf) (PDF link), lays out the specific promised disciplinary procedures and procedural safeguards. And every contract includes implied covenants of good faith. In most states, if I recall my civil law correctly, a breach of that covenant is a tort. In North Carolina – pardon the law geekiness – it sounds in contract. I mention this latter just in case someone is minded to read the Duke policy with an eye towards construing the provisions in a hypertechnical way against the plaintiff. For example, the hearing panel “…may exclude witness testimony deemed irrelevant or duplicative.” This does not give the hearing panel unreviewable carte blanche to exclude any witness just by calling it irrelevant – that finding must be made in good faith. In this case, McLeod was not permitted to call a witness that would, if called, substantiated a portion of his story and rebutted the testimony of the complainant. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/12 "2014-06-04T02:59:47Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > No. > > Duke is most famous for their men’s basketball team. I thought that was UCLA (Go, John Wooden’s Bruins! Seven National Championships in a row! W00T! Winning streaks of 75 games and 88 games! W00T! W00T!! Lifetime won-loss record of 664 - 162! W00T! W00T!! W00T!!!). Duke is famous for their law school graduating the later disgraced former President Richard M. Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/13 "2014-06-04T03:31:07Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > I think Duke is most famous for its false rape accusations, the famous one a few years ago Doesn’t ring a bell. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/14 "2014-06-04T03:42:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Doesn’t ring a bell. Seriously? This one? It was pretty big news. > **[Duke lacrosse rape hoax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case)** > > The Duke lacrosse case was a widely reported 2006 criminal case hoax in Durham, North Carolina, United States, in which three members of the Duke University men's lacrosse team were falsely accused of rape. The three students were David Evans, Collin Finnerty, and Reade Seligmann. The accuser, Crystal Mangum, a student at North Carolina Central University and part-time striptease dancer, alleged that the rape occurred at the Durham residence of two of the team's captains, where On April 11, 20... ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/15 "2014-06-04T03:46:05Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Seriously? No. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/16 "2014-06-04T13:50:34Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > No. > > Duke is most famous for their men’s basketball team. I’d put it in this order. Duke is a… 1. Men’s basketball team. 2. Fake rape accusation cesspit. 3. Where Tucker Max writes about in lots of his stories. Plus, I’m not sure where I heard this, but there might be some sort of school there. No, I’m probably thinking of something else. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/17 "2014-06-04T13:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Serious question: how could I possibly agree or disagree without having seen the contract they supposedly breached? I mean, if it includes a “we reserve the right to expel students at our sole discretion” clause, then of course I don’t agree. [/QUOTE] Let’s say the contract did include such a clause. Do you think it should be given effect? That Duke should be able to kick out students whenever it likes without refunding their tuition? > [@Bricker](#): > > In most states, if I recall my civil law correctly, a breach of that covenant is a tort. In North Carolina – pardon the law geekiness – it sounds in contract. The majority rule is that actions for breach of the covenant of good faith lie in contract except where the contract is for insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/18 "2014-06-04T14:01:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I thought that was UCLA Only if it’s suddenly 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/19 "2014-06-04T15:15:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The majority rule is that actions for breach of the covenant of good faith lie in contract except where the contract is for insurance. I yield to the gentleman with the more recent civil law class. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946/20 "2014-06-04T15:18:25Z")
That one I know from professional experience rather than education. It isn’t taught in contracts and is only taught in torts to the extent that a professor _might mention_ that a bad faith claim against an insurer is a tort action. [/end hijack] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/duke-university-asking-for-trouble-on-rape/689946.md?page=2)