# Dumb Star Trek (TOS) question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505 "2014-05-02T14:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/21 "2014-05-02T19:29:33Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > IIRC (which is by no means certain), the TOS Technical Manual stated that the warp factor squared equals the multiplier of lightspeed, i.e., warp 1 is lightspeed, warp 2 is 4 times lightspeed (2 squared), warp 3 is 9 times lightspeed, etc.; and the TNG Manual said that in the Enterprise D’s time, the warp factor is cubed instead of squared. Except that would make Warp 10 equal to 1,000 times the speed of light, not infinite. But then of course, they changed the speeds according to the Need of Plot. In the beginning, DS9 was ‘months’ away from Earth. At the end it was what, 2-3 days? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/22 "2014-05-02T19:35:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So here’s the question: once the Enterprise reaches warp 9 or whatever, why do the engines need to be kept on? Why can’t they just be turned off? You’ve got the answer for Warp. Now, what is the answer for the impulse engines. The Enterprise seems not to accelerate under impulse. Since they can reach close to light speed using them, there must be something going on beyond a fancy name for a reaction engine, but impulse has been even less defined than warp. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/23 "2014-05-02T19:39:49Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > This happened more than once, e.g., when they were chasing the Gorns in “Arena” and (in particular) when they were chasing the giant amoeba in “Obsession.” In addition to the explanations offered above, note that the maximum safe cruising speed of the _Enterprise_ was always Warp 6, though it could be pushed to Warp 8 in extreme emergencies. Anything higher than that was considered dangerous, since the ship’s field mechanisms weren’t able to compensate for it. > > I always found it interesting that despite all the technical advances made in the intervening 78 years, the ships in Picard’s day couldn’t manage to go any faster than this either. It took “trans-warp” technology to get past that hurdle, and only the Borg seemed to have mastered that! Between Kirk’s time and Picard’s, the warp scale had been recalibrated at least once. The Enterprise-E, travelling at warp 9, was going a lof faster than the Enterprise-no-suffix. Also, warp 10 meant travelling infinitely fast, and wasn’t possible. And no, I have never seen that episode of Voyager. It doesn’t even exist. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/24 "2014-05-02T19:50:45Z")
Warp 13. When you absolutely, positively have to get there yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/25 "2014-05-02T20:11:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Enterprise seems not to accelerate under impulse. Since they can reach close to light speed using them, there must be something going on beyond a fancy name for a reaction engine, but impulse has been even less defined than warp. Inertia dampeners. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/26 "2014-05-02T20:13:54Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Inertia dampeners. Just…yuck. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/27 "2014-05-02T20:33:25Z")
They work much better than the old inertia moisteners used to. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/28 "2014-05-02T22:02:58Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > . . . when they were chasing the giant amoeba in “Obsession.” . . . “The Immunity Syndrome.” > [@buddha\_david](#): > > . . . In _Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home_, the Enterprise crew slingshots around the sun fast enough to send themselves back in time. However, towards the end of the movie, the exact same procedure sends them _forward_ in time. How on earth does that work?!? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > . . . When you generate a high-level warp field in a deep gravity well, you can end up almost anywhere on a closed time-like loop. Pretty much this. It’s a variant on the Tipler Machine. Instead of an infinite rotating cylinder, you just go really fast around a large rotating mass. The exact trajectory through space-time defines the end-points of the intersecting curve. (In “real life,” Roger Penrose has shown that, near a rotating black hole, spacetime “tilts” a little, with space becoming a little “timelike,” and time becoming a little “spacelike.” The whole idea has that much theoretical justification.) > [@Voyager](#): > > You’ve got the answer for Warp. Now, what is the answer for the impulse engines. . . . Think of the caterpillar drive from Red October. Impulse engines provide ordinary Newtonian impulse…but without rocketing out reaction mass. It’s probably based on their antigravity (and inertial dampening) tech. They’ve got a working “Dean Drive.” I do have an argument for why ships “slow down” when their normal-space drives stop working. What really happens is that the “point of view” can easily match velocities, so the ship appears to stop. Pretend that the show is being observed by a little scout craft with a camera. When the big ship is maneuvering violently, it’s all the scout ship can do to keep it in sight at all. But when the big ship stops maneuvering, the scout ship can also stop maneuvering, and the two are relatively stationary. (Hey, I got applause for that one at a LosCon!) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/29 "2014-05-02T22:39:41Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Pardon the hijack, but here’s something that’s continuously bothered me: > > In _Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home_, the Enterprise crew slingshots around the sun fast enough to send themselves back in time. However, towards the end of the movie, the exact same procedure sends them _forward_ in time. How on earth does that work?!? Kirk: Mr. Spock, have you accounted for the variable mass of whales and water in your time re-entry program? Spock: Mr. Scott cannot give me exact figures, Admiral, so… I will make a guess. Kirk: A guess? You, Spock? That’s extraordinary. Spock: [to Dr. McCoy] I don’t think he understands. McCoy: No, Spock. He means that he feels safer about your guesses than most other people’s facts. Spock: Then you’re saying… [pause] Spock: It is a compliment? McCoy: It is. Spock: Ah. Then, I will try to make the best guess I can. McCoy: Please do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/30 "2014-05-03T00:19:17Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Kirk: Mr. Spock, have you accounted for the variable mass of whales and water in your time re-entry program? > > Spock: Mr. Scott cannot give me exact figures, Admiral, so… I will make a guess. > > Kirk: A guess? You, Spock? That’s extraordinary. > > Spock: [to Dr. McCoy] I don’t think he understands. > > McCoy: No, Spock. He means that he feels safer about your guesses than most other people’s facts. > > Spock: Then you’re saying… > > [pause] > > Spock: It is a compliment? > > McCoy: It is. > > Spock: Ah. Then, I will try to make the best guess I can. > > McCoy: Please do. I don’t get what the big deal with that scene is. During TOS, Kirk often told Spock to “speculate”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/31 "2014-05-03T01:28:32Z")
And I don’t get why they didn’t just go to a whale weigh station. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/32 "2014-05-03T02:08:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t get what the big deal with that scene is. During TOS, Kirk often told Spock to “speculate”. I think it’s all about Nimoy’s deadpan delivery. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/33 "2014-05-03T03:21:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t get what the big deal with that scene is. During TOS, Kirk often told Spock to “speculate”. Yes, but… Remember that Spock had just been resurrected from the dead, and his memory was a bit … patchy. As McCoy had said, he wasn’t exactly firing on all thrusters, either; so much so that Gillian believed Kirk when he told her Spock had taken a little too much LDS during the '60s. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/34 "2014-05-03T03:27:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > “The Immunity Syndrome.” We’re both partially right. The episode **was** “Obsession,” but they were chasing the Vampire Cloud, not the amoeba (“It was outrunning us.”/“It turned and attacked.”). My bad! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/35 "2014-05-03T08:50:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Between Kirk’s time and Picard’s, the warp scale had been recalibrated at least once. The Enterprise-E, travelling at warp 9, was going a lof faster than the Enterprise-no-suffix. Also, warp 10 meant travelling infinitely fast, and wasn’t possible. Who says you canna change the laws of physics…? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/36 "2014-05-03T09:08:38Z")
Doesn’t going faster than Warp 10 turn you into a lizard or something? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/37 "2014-05-03T09:11:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Doesn’t going faster than Warp 10 turn you into a lizard or something? Salamander. I think it’s a giant salamander. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/38 "2014-05-03T09:44:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Doesn’t going faster than Warp 10 turn you into a lizard or something? The dangers of going too fast are [well documented](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/39 "2014-05-04T06:52:04Z")
On reflection, I guess the biggest disconnect between warp speed and reality (at least in TOS) may have been in “The Paradise Syndrome”. The _Enterprise_ briefly visits a planet, then zips off to intercept and deflect a large asteroid on a collision course with that planet. The trip apparently requires a sustained warp 9, which strains the engines sufficiently that the deflection attempt both fails and damages the ship, sending it limping back to the planet at impulse power, a trip taking about two months, with the asteroid right behind them the whole way. Now if the asteroid was really moving along, twice as fast as Mercury in its orbit and faster still than any real asteroid we’ve ever detected, it might be moving at 100 km/s. A two-month trip would be a little over 500 million kilometers. That’s about 30 light-minutes, not even as far as Earth to Jupiter at their closest. Does it really take a _sustained_ Warp 9 to cover such a distance, i.e. sustained for more than a few hundredths of a second? Seems to me the time saved over travelling at a more sedate and sustainable Warp 6 would be negligible, far less than one second by any chart I can find on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505/40 "2014-05-04T07:07:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > On reflection, I guess the biggest disconnect between warp speed and reality (at least in TOS) may have been in “The Paradise Syndrome”. The _Enterprise_ briefly visits a planet, then zips off to intercept and deflect a large asteroid on a collision course with that planet. The trip apparently requires a sustained warp 9, which strains the engines sufficiently that the deflection attempt both fails and damages the ship, sending it limping back to the planet at impulse power, a trip taking about two months, with the asteroid right behind them the whole way. > > Now if the asteroid was really moving along, twice as fast as Mercury in its orbit and faster still than any real asteroid we’ve ever detected, it might be moving at 100 km/s. A two-month trip would be a little over 500 million kilometers. That’s about 30 light-minutes, not even as far as Earth to Jupiter at their closest. Does it really take a _sustained_ Warp 9 to cover such a distance, i.e. sustained for more than a few hundredths of a second? Seems to me the time saved over travelling at a more sedate and sustainable Warp 6 would be negligible, far less than one second by any chart I can find on the topic. IIRC they burned out the engines by directing warp power to the tractor beams to try to deflect the asteroid. But a reason for them not zipping to the planet on impulse was not mentioned - they’d need it to go into orbit anyway. I hate that episode, btw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumb-star-trek-tos-question/687505.md?page=3)