# Dumbassery in Pamplona **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828 "2009-07-13T04:18:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/101 "2009-07-15T14:12:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > After all, knowing little of Iberian culture and the Festival of Bravery you judge it as “shameful.” > [@](#): > > Hello, and welcome to _Brave Manly Experiences_, I’m your host, David Attenborough. Today we are going to be lucky enough to get a first hand view of that ancient North American ritual of bravery and manliness, Wolverine Punching. > > But first, let’s say hello to last year’s champion, Peter “stumpy” Smith. Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/102 "2009-07-15T14:54:21Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You’re probably right. After all, knowing little of Iberian culture and the Festival of Bravery you judge it as “shameful.” Not knowing me, you judge me as a dumbass. I believe I said you were _being_ a dumbass - there is some nuance there - and I only know you by what you post. So let’s have a look. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > An entire tradition practiced by millions over the centuries is ‘shameful.’ Millions of people who having more experience than you have come to the opposite conclusion from yours. I guess they are all wrong. So it’s not shameful because it’s a “tradition practiced by millions over the centuries.” Can’t argue with that. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Thank goodness you came along to tell them how to live their lives. I only “told” my opinion to those reading this thread on this message board. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Frankly, within limits, bullfighting and other cultural traditions are none of our business. If you do not support this art, do not attend or watch. There is no reason to slur and entire history. Cultural traditions are none of “our” business, heh? Because why? Because they’re “cultural”? So, dog fighting is ok? Pederasty? Female circumcision? Obviously, some of these are more heinous than others, but by your rationale, within unstated limits, they’re none of “our” business. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/103 "2009-07-15T15:37:12Z")
I hoped it would be. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/104 "2009-07-16T02:27:44Z")
No cite of it handy but a bit on NPR pointed out that the Run is really done more for the tourists at this point than out of some grand Iberian tradition. According to that piece bullfighting has been losing popularity steadily in Spain. Easy cite - [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting) - references a 2002 Gallup poll which showed a solid majority of Spaniards had no interest in bullfighting, even in its most popular regions. > [@](#): > > A 2002 Gallup poll found that 68.8% of Spaniards express “no interest” in bullfighting while 20.6% expressed “some interest” and 10.4% “a lot of interest.” The poll also found significant generational variety, with 51% of those 65 and older expressing interest, compared with 23% of those between 25–34 years of age. Popularity also varies significantly according to regions in Spain with it being least popular in Galicia and Catalonia with 81% and 79% of those polled expressing no interest. Interest is greatest in the zones of the north, centre, east and south, with around 37% declaring themselves fans and 63% having no interest.[18] Overall Spain couldn’t give a rat’s tapas about this grand Iberian tradition; the money the dumb tourists will drop though … that’s a tradition worth keeping up. And it is for the dumb frat boy tourists looking for some artificial proof of their alleged manhood and their dollars and Euros that this tradition persists. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/105 "2009-07-16T03:44:45Z")
Someone upthread mentioned that the suffering of the bull was worth it for the entertainment value of the event. I feel exactly the same way about the suffering of the fratboy bleeding out in the street with a bull’s horn up his ass. Someone getting drunk and taunting a bull gets killed? Heefuckinglarious. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/106 "2009-07-16T05:06:32Z")
> [@Ferris](#): > > 1. Right now it’s winter. > 2. Only bottles in the fridge. > 3. My wife would probably win. > > Combining all three with Running Of The Bulls would be technically feasible, much more interesting for the media, and demonstrate 75% maleness, minimum. > > And if the bulls were on snowmobiles, well… That still leaves room for 25% femaleness. Add guns [del]or[/del] and fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![Ferris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferris/32/11573_2.png) [@Ferris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferris)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/107 "2009-07-16T05:19:48Z")
Guns, eh? I like your style, sir… [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/108 "2009-07-16T07:03:18Z")
Just by the way, I heard tell years ago some Hispanic group in Chicago wanted to have a bullfight. Since bullfighting in illegal in Illinois (Who drafted that law? Why? When?) they attached black velcro to the bull’s shoulders and threw the lances tipped with velcro. Worked great. (Ever see Portuguese bullfighting? The object is to grab a hanky tied with string between the horns. While on horseback. On a horse that want no part of this silliness. Is it on Crete that bullfighting involves grabbing the horns and flipping over the bull?) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/109 "2009-07-16T11:34:30Z")
The flipping over the bull used to be done in ancient Crete (I don’t know if they do it nowadays) and is done in Navarra and the Baja Navarra (the SW of France, an area known as Las Landas in Spanish). It’s known as “corrida vasco-landesa.” Searching for recortadores in youtube comes up with a long list of recorte contests. Recortar is to run close to the bull/cow in front of it, so it goes after you instead of after whomever it was going. In the contests, normally the work is done in pairs, with one runner attracting the bull and then the other “cutting in” and dropping a ring onto the bull’s horns. The pair who’s placed more rings wins. Details of the contest change by location, of course. No results for vasco-landesa or variants thereof, pity. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/110 "2009-07-16T16:33:18Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > (Ever see Portuguese bullfighting? The object is to grab a hanky tied with string between the horns. While on horseback. On a horse that want no part of this silliness. I’m sure the horses just love being caught and gored. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/111 "2009-07-16T16:37:16Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Reading the [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_of_the_Bulls) on the event, I’m a bit surprised at how few deaths there are. _ **15 in the last 99 years? Lots of traditional events around the world have killed more, I imagine** _. Time for someone to start a Pit thread about the annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/112 "2009-07-16T18:14:54Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I’m sure the horses just love being caught and gored. They wear thick padding, armor if you will. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/113 "2009-07-16T20:37:41Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > They wear thick padding, armor if you will. Doesn’t do much to save them. > [@](#): > > ["It’s not unusual for horses used in bullfights to be so badly gored by the bulls that they have to be killed, but only after they have been dragged from the ring and the view of the spectators. > > Spanish bullfights also employ “picadors”, men on horseback armed with spears. > > These horses are often gored even though they are protected by what is termed a “peto”, or a protective cape. These petos often do little more than hide the horses wounds. "]([SHARK - Investigations and Campaigns Against Animal Abuse](http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000482)) [Photographic evidence of what the bulls do to the horses – warning, graphic](http://www.actionagainstpoisoning.com/page13/page47/bullfighthorseabuse.html) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/114 "2009-07-16T21:09:24Z")
Don’t click on these links if you have a weak stomach. [Another image of a horse being gut-gored](http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/environment/gallery/2008/may/29/theweekinwildlife/GD7402904@A-bull-gores-a-horse--7642.jpg) [Gored and eviscerated](http://www.iwab.org/photos/San%20Sebastian%20gored%20horse%202.jpg) [Does this horse appear to be having fun yet?](http://www.iwab.org/photos/San%20Sebastian%20gored%20horse%201.jpg) [I’m sure the “armor” did a really wonderful protective job, yeh](http://www.strangezoo.com/images/content/101469.jpg) Had enough yet, **Paul**? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/115 "2009-07-16T23:17:13Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Don’t click on these links if you have a weak stomach. > > [Another image of a horse being gut-gored](http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/environment/gallery/2008/may/29/theweekinwildlife/GD7402904@A-bull-gores-a-horse--7642.jpg) > > [Gored and eviscerated](http://www.iwab.org/photos/San%20Sebastian%20gored%20horse%202.jpg) > > [Does this horse appear to be having fun yet?](http://www.iwab.org/photos/San%20Sebastian%20gored%20horse%201.jpg) > > [I’m sure the “armor” did a really wonderful protective job, yeh](http://www.strangezoo.com/images/content/101469.jpg) > > Had enough yet, **Paul**? Here, let me save him some time: What’s the problem? An entire tradition practiced by millions over the centuries -millions of people who having more experience than you have - think it’s fine. I guess they are all wrong. Thank goodness you came along to tell them how to live their lives. Frankly, within limits, bullfighting and other cultural traditions are none of our business. If you do not support this art, do not attend or watch. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/116 "2009-07-17T00:16:42Z")
Hey, if you think watching an innocent animal be disemboweled is art, knock yourself out. I’ll know what to think of you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/117 "2009-07-17T04:32:12Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Had enough yet, **Paul**? Now that is educational! I had never seen a horse (or a bull) hurt in that way. Ignorance fought and I thank you. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/118 "2009-07-17T14:12:56Z")
You’re welcome, and thank you for being willing to rethink the matter. Bullfighting is so glamorized that it’s not surprising people don’t realize the ugly realities of it. As a horse owner, it was very difficult for me to assemble those images, and I wish I could erase them from my mind’s eye, but if doing it helped you and anyone else to see this barbarism in a new way, it was worth it. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/119 "2009-07-17T14:38:33Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Hey, if you think watching an innocent animal be disemboweled is art, knock yourself out. I’ll know what to think of you. Whoosh (look at my exchange with him upthread. You’ll see some familiar language). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828/120 "2009-07-17T15:13:56Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > You’re welcome, and thank you for being willing to rethink the matter. Bullfighting is so glamorized that it’s not surprising people don’t realize the ugly realities of it. > > As a horse owner, it was very difficult for me to assemble those images, and I wish I could erase them from my mind’s eye, but if doing it helped you and anyone else to see this barbarism in a new way, it was worth it. I’ve always hated bullfighting, but I never knew about the damage done to the horses. How awful. Those were truly horrifying images. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dumbassery-in-pamplona/502828.md?page=7)