# Dundee At War! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 6, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554 "2003-07-06T11:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![QueenJbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3be4f8/32.png) [@QueenJbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenJbean)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/1 "2003-07-06T11:26:07Z")
I have heard a wacky, crazy rumour that a certain Scottish city remains to this day to be at war with Germany In the little piece of official paper that declared Britain was no longer at war - apparently the Scottish city of Dundee was specifically excluded. Is this true? The city may not be Dundee but I’m sure it’s one of the D- ones. Any info is appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/2 "2003-07-06T11:39:56Z")
It’s not Dundee, it’s Berwick-upon-Tweed. [Here’s](http://thecapitalscot.com/standrew/berwick.html) a link explaining the situation; I make no claims as to the accuracy thereof. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/3 "2003-07-06T11:42:47Z")
It’s Berwick-upon-Tweed (which is in England). Due to the fact that Berwick-upon-Tweed habitually changed hands between England and Scotland quite often royal decrees where signed in the name of “England, Scotland and the townn of Berwick-upon-Tweed”, the declaration of war on Russia (the Crimean War) in 1853 was signed in this manner. The declaration of peace in 1856, on the other hand, was only signed “England and Scotland”, which led to the anomaly. However Berwick made peace with Russia (or the Soviets as they were then) in 1966 when a peace treaty was formally signed. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/4 "2003-07-06T11:51:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*It’s not Dundee, it’s Berwick-upon-Tweed. > > [Here’s](http://thecapitalscot.com/standrew/berwick.html) a link explaining the situation; I make no claims as to the accuracy thereof. \*\* I think that’s wrong because I think Berwick has been part of England since 1885, before that it was a ‘free burgh’ ---
**Author:** ![QueenJbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3be4f8/32.png) [@QueenJbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenJbean)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/5 "2003-07-06T14:08:20Z")
Ahhh - I see, thank you Random trivia - the borders of Scotland and England have so often changed hand they are now known as The Borders and tend not to distinguish themselves as Scottish or English. England and Scotland are both somewhat contemptuous (sp?) of this attitude. But thanks! ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/6 "2003-07-06T16:28:08Z")
I know a few people from the Borders, and they’re all pretty insistent that they’re Scottish. YMMV though. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/7 "2003-07-06T16:30:01Z")
IIRC there was a humorous ceremony in Berwick within the last decade where a representative of Berwick and one from Russia declared that they were now at peace. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/8 "2003-07-06T17:39:37Z")
And of course Berwick are the only English football team that play in the Scottish League. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/9 "2003-07-06T17:42:19Z")
Don’t mind me, I was expecting Paul Hogan. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/10 "2003-07-06T17:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rayne Man \* > \*\*And of course Berwick are the only English football team that play in the Scottish League. \*\* Apart from Glasgow Rangers, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/11 "2003-07-06T18:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*Apart from Glasgow Rangers, of course. \*\* I thought they were from Belfast… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/12 "2003-07-06T19:30:39Z")
Aren’t they all Dutch these days? ---
**Author:** ![QueenJbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3be4f8/32.png) [@QueenJbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenJbean)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/13 "2003-07-06T19:48:33Z")
Bwahahahahahaha And the ones from Belfast are Celtic . . . at least they wanna be 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/14 "2003-07-06T19:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Aren’t they all Dutch these days? No, Advocaat’s attempt to remake them as the Dutch National Team Mk II was scuppered by the little matter of him getting _de zak_. Although the club retains its perverse attachment to the colour orange (sorry, tangerine :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/15 "2003-07-06T23:08:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Rayne Man_ > **And of course Berwick are the only English football team that play in the Scottish League.** Easy trivia, that. Name the only Scottish football team that plays in an English pyramid league. [Gretna](http://www.pyramidfootball.co.uk/Clubs/Gretna.htm) plays in the Unibond League Division One, or three leagues below Division Three. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/16 "2003-07-07T05:27:17Z")
Not anymore, Duke. They moved to the Scottish league last year to replace the late and thoroughly unlamented Airdrieonians. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/17 "2003-07-07T12:52:43Z")
Sacre bleu! I did not know that. I’m sure the Scottish and English FAs are relieved at that move, though…even when they were in the Unibond, Gretna was playing in the Scottish FA Cup. That must have caused some scheduling nightmares. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/18 "2003-07-07T13:26:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke \* > \*\*Sacre bleu! I did not know that. > > I’m sure the Scottish and English FAs are relieved at that move, though…even when they were in the Unibond, Gretna was playing in the Scottish FA Cup. That must have caused some scheduling nightmares. \*\* Sorry, Duke, I think that’s wrong as well. They did famously play in the English Cup at least once, but they didn’t play in the Scottish Cup until this year. I don’t think the league they were in would have entitled them to even play in the Scottish qualifying cup. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/19 "2003-07-07T14:39:56Z")
Back to the OP, or at least to Berwick’s current condition of war, I e-mailed a chap called Derek Sharman at Berwick-upon-Tweed Council to get their version of the story. I mentioned the link about Berwick having changed hands before the armistice document passed from London to Edinburgh. Here’s what he told me: > [@](#): > > The most usual story is that Berwick is actually at war with RUSSIA! > > This is supposedly due to a clerical error relating to the Crimean War. In fact, Berwick-upon-Tweed was always mentioned separately on international documents until the 1746 Wales and Berwick Act brought the Borough formally into Great Britain. Even then, Berwick was considered a “Borough of, but not within the kingdom of England” until 1836. > > The story goes that Berwick was wrongly included on the declaration of war against Russia in 1854, but was omitted from the peace treaty in 1856, leaving us “on paper” still at war with Russia. A Russian cannon from the Crimea stands on the riverside fortifications as a nice reminder of the story! > > Various other versions are told, and an informal “peace treaty” was signed during a visit to the town by a party of officials from Moscow in the 1960s, but it is still wise to duck when you hear low flying aircraft in the town! > > Berwick has been part of England since 1836, but there is an interesting World War II twist. Despite being located in England, Berwick Barracks was (and still is) the Headquarters of the Kings Own Scottish Borderers. This brought the garrison until the control of the army’s Scottish Command. Until 1943, Scottish lowland regiments trained here. However, in 1943, Berwick was moved into Northern England Command, and regiments from Yorkshire and Lancashire started training here instead. This may be the wartime origin of the anecdote you refer to in your e-mail. > > I hope this is helpful to you. However true, it all makes a good story! > Best regards, > Derek Sharman (Union of the Crowns 400 Project Officer) So there you go. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > Apart from Glasgow Rangers, of course. That was uncalled for! It’s bad enough having to carry the can for the idiots we’ve got. IIRC, the guy called **Nostradamus** (who doesn’t seem to turn up here any more) was/is a Blackpool fan, so he might have his own reasons to query Rangers wearing “tangerine” shirts from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![smam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@smam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554/20 "2003-07-07T15:18:00Z")
Dundonian checking in. I think I just heard someone shouting " Gotten himmel. " From over behind my desk somewhere. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dundee-at-war/186554.md?page=2)