# Dune: Duncan vs Gurney **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530 "2006-09-21T05:14:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/21 "2006-09-21T21:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=GargoyleWB] Gurney easily wins. Duncan was the Spinal Tap drummer of the Dune universe, he could never get a fair break, dying in various happenstance manners. Crushed, killed, assassinated, suicide, blown up, shot down, and finally a captive sex mule. He didn’t have a good track record. The only reason he stuck around was because the Tleilaxu were amusing themselves with genetic games. [/QUOTE] More like the [Mr. Bill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Bill#The_Mr._Bill_Show), the [Super Dave](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Dave_Osborne) or the [Kenny](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_McCormick) of the Dune universe. 😉🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/22 "2006-09-21T21:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] More like the [Mr. Bill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Bill#The_Mr._Bill_Show), the [Super Dave](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Dave_Osborne) or the [Kenny](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_McCormick) of the Dune universe. 😉🆒 [/QUOTE] Or Timmy from Dinosaurs. "Duncan is crushed by an 800 pound mutant walrus\* “SAY IT!” “We need another Duncan!” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/23 "2006-09-21T21:47:54Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Do you really think the “final” Duncan was significantly improved over the Duncan that Moneo so effortlessly schooled in _God Emperor_? I’m not arguing that he might be; I just can’t remember anything specific in the subsequent two books that stated that he was “upgraded.” [/QUOTE] Yes, the final Duncan was for sure better. The Tlielax would not do any modifactions to Duncan lest they incure the wrath of the tyrant. However, the last Duncan ghola was ordered from the Tlielaxu by the Bene Gesserit and they requested that his pranu-bindu (whatever) be enhanced to possibly exceed modern levels. Plus, remember Moneo was an Atreides and Duncan found it hard to stand against them. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/24 "2006-09-21T21:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=GargoyleWB] The only reason he stuck around was because the Tleilaxu were amusing themselves with genetic games. [/QUOTE] I disagree. When Hayt, the first Duncan ghola, was given as a gift to Paul, nobody but Paul believed that it was actually Duncan - at least not until the memories were restored. Before that, IIRC, most people thought he was a face dancer. Leto II made use of him because he needed something in Duncans genes that, like I said before, the Tlielax wouldn’t have messed with since they didn’t want to have GEoD destroy them. The last Duncan did for sure have some tweaking done above what the Bene Geserit had asked for. Duncan Omega had been conditioned as a male honered matre so to speak, based on what the Tleilax had learned from their Scattered brethern. After Duncan Omega had his memories restored he said he was supposed to kill the Bene Geserit imprinter who was supposed to imprint him. He didn’t kill Murbella because she wasn’t an imprinter, but the sisterhood learned that a male equivilent of the Honored Matres could cause them problems, via mutual addiction. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/25 "2006-09-21T22:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=adam yax] After Duncan Omega had his memories restored he said he was supposed to kill the Bene Geserit imprinter who was supposed to imprint him. He didn’t kill Murbella because she wasn’t an imprinter, but the sisterhood learned that a male equivilent of the Honored Matres could cause them problems, via mutual addiction. [/QUOTE] Ah yes, the weird sex scene from _Heretics of Dune_. It was like Ayn Rand writing sci-fi. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/26 "2006-09-21T22:34:06Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Ah yes, the weird sex scene from _Heretics of Dune_. It was like Ayn Rand writing sci-fi. [/QUOTE] Lol. ---
**Author:** ![iamamoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b4bc9f/32.png) [@iamamoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamamoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/27 "2006-09-22T02:16:13Z")
How does Count Fenring figure in here? At the end of the first book, after Paul has killed Feyd, the Emperor wants Fenring to call Paul out. The Count has seen Paul fight, yet still thinks the he could kill Paul–“and he knew this as truth”. So were does Fenring rank as a fighter? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/28 "2006-09-22T02:34:13Z")
[QUOTE=iamamoocher] How does Count Fenring figure in here? At the end of the first book, after Paul has killed Feyd, the Emperor wants Fenring to call Paul out. The Count has seen Paul fight, yet still thinks the he could kill Paul–“and he knew this as truth”. So were does Fenring rank as a fighter? [/QUOTE] High enough to be confident that he could kill Paul. That doesn’t necessarily mean he could, just that he’s not gonna get psyched out thinking that he might not be able to. Of course, it’s entirely possible that he WAS better than Paul, but we never got to find that out. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/29 "2006-09-22T13:59:27Z")
To let Feyd speak for himself… “I WILL kill you!” Of course, we all know how much good that did him! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/30 "2006-09-22T14:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=Raguleader] High enough to be confident that he could kill Paul. That doesn’t necessarily mean he could, just that he’s not gonna get psyched out thinking that he might not be able to. Of course, it’s entirely possible that he WAS better than Paul, but we never got to find that out. [/QUOTE] Paul recognised him as the blind spot in his future visions, a possible diverging point between his dead body lying in a pool of his own blood and him leading the coming Jihad. Since the Count was a sort of failed attempt at the KH, and factoring in Paul’s death wish psyche and his being physically drained, well… I think Count could’ve taken him. But I also think both Paul and the Count realised that a dead Maud’dib would lead to a much bloodier and vicious jihad than if Paul remained alive. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530/31 "2006-09-22T14:49:23Z")
Another thing to remember, Fenring refusing to fight Paul was the only time he had ever not carried out the emperors wishes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-duncan-vs-gurney/373530.md?page=1)