# "Dune" nitpick: Why "Zensunni"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 27, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187 "2009-06-27T18:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/21 "2009-06-29T17:00:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree. But my point was that Herbert’s inspiration was not obvious except in retrospect. Islamic culture was still fairly obscure to the popular conscious in the early sixties. So one could say that Herbert was… prescient? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/22 "2009-06-29T17:00:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Fremen are described as “Zensunni wanderers,” but, so far as I can tell, nothing in their beliefs shows any Buddhist or Muslim influence. When I’d read “Dune”, I didn’t even get the Zensunni reference, 'tho I got the general idea – the obscure, misunderstood religion that controls the source of medicine, power and travel. Then I read “The Butlerian Jihad”, and they actually mentioned the Zenshiite, who, along worth the Zensunni, worshiped Budallah. Then I finally got it, and realized how lame these new novels were. Even if they were based on Fark Herbert’s notes. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/23 "2009-06-29T17:09:26Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > So one could say that Herbert was… prescient? 😉 More presentscient than prescient, really. The threat image from the arab countries has in essence remained the same for the last forty years, the rise of Israel notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/24 "2009-06-29T17:09:31Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > When I’d read “Dune”, I didn’t even get the Zensunni reference, 'tho I got the general idea – the obscure, misunderstood religion that controls the source of medicine, power and travel. Then I read “The Butlerian Jihad”, and they actually mentioned the Zenshiite, who, along worth the Zensunni, worshiped Budallah. Then I finally got it, and realized how lame these new novels were. Even if they were based on Fark Herbert’s notes. smack: Wow. I swear I didn’t see muldoonthief 's 3 hour old post when I made mine. Oh well, what he said. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/25 "2009-06-29T17:20:47Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I’m just glad that Frank’s son and some other hack writer didn’t piss all over his grave by writing a series of novels detailing the whole backstory of Dune, including the origins of the Fremen and such abominations as the Zenshiites. Hey, Frank started that, with the Zensufi in _Chapterhouse_. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/26 "2009-06-29T18:39:23Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Thus, “Orange Catholic” and “Zensunni”. Not to sound stupid, but what religion is Orange? ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/27 "2009-06-29T18:51:07Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Not to sound stupid, but what religion is Orange? From “[dune.wikia.com](http://dune.wikia.com)”: "“Orange” appears to be a etymological corruption of the part of the official designation, Koranjiyana, using only the first two syllables and dropping the first consonant. " I’ll have to look in my copy of Dune Encyclopedia and my various Herbert essays to see if there are any other specifics… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/28 "2009-06-29T18:57:56Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > From “[dune.wikia.com](http://dune.wikia.com)”: > > "“Orange” appears to be a etymological corruption of the part of the official designation, Koranjiyana, using only the first two syllables and dropping the first consonant. " > > I’ll have to look in my copy of Dune Encyclopedia and my various Herbert essays to see if there are any other specifics… Huh. I always assumed it was used to mean “militant Protestant” (as in [the Orange Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution)). ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/29 "2009-06-29T19:03:05Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > …Then I finally got it, and realized how lame these new novels were. Even if they were based on Fark Herbert’s notes. …and a mini rant on this… I’ve collected a bunch of FH stuff over the years, and from his author’s notes, essays, and interviews, it is clear that he was _not_ a notetaker or outliner like, for example, Tolkien was. He was a very expository writer, with most novels and stories spilling out onto the page as near complete first drafts. At most, I believe he would have had a skeleton outline or brainstorm list for a “Dune 7” book, but there’s no way that anything existed that could have provided an honest basis for these prequels. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/30 "2009-06-29T19:22:43Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > …and a mini rant on this… > > I’ve collected a bunch of FH stuff over the years, and from his author’s notes, essays, and interviews, it is clear that he was _not_ a notetaker or outliner like, for example, Tolkien was. He was a very expository writer, with most novels and stories spilling out onto the page as near complete first drafts. > > At most, I believe he would have had a skeleton outline or brainstorm list for a “Dune 7” book, but there’s no way that anything existed that could have provided an honest basis for these prequels. ISTR in the first BH/KA collaboration, they made a big deal about finding a forgotten safe deposit box that had FH’s notes for Dune 7, including an answer to the big question “What scared the incredibly lethal Honored Matres so much that they retreated in a panic?” No mention of any other source material from FH for the 3 prequel books & the 3 Butlerian Jihad books - they just wanted to milk that cash cow as much as they could. And frankly, if they did show up with verifiable notes from Frank Herbert showing that he came up with the amusement park with a sandworm ride that had a stockpile of spice beneath it, I’d burn every Herbert book I own. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/31 "2009-06-29T19:33:06Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > And frankly, if they did show up with verifiable notes from Frank Herbert showing that he came up with the amusement park with a sandworm ride that had a stockpile of spice beneath it, I’d burn every Herbert book I own. Please tell me you’re making that up. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/32 "2009-06-29T19:43:31Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Please tell me you’re making that up. Nope. [Check it out…](http://books.google.com/books?id=--8cBYaNlA4C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=sandworm+amusement+park&source=bl&ots=qHcFurliSp&sig=DaxW5bzWQV8tz8ED1QeudElUTGA&hl=en&ei=PBhJSpaUJ6KNtgfQiIDbAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3) I read _Dune_ when it first came out & remember liking it a lot. Hey, I was a kid. But I never read it again & never did any of the sequels. I’m now bogged down in the last chapters of _Children of Dune_ & am ready to throw in the towel. The writing style does nothing for me… If I manage to make it through all the Real Frank Herbert books, I’ll surely not risk his son’s Abominations. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/33 "2009-06-29T20:13:01Z")
Every time someone tells me about events in the Anderson novels, I think to myself, “It can’t get any worse!” And I’m always wrong. (I read the very first Herbert _fils_/Anderson “prequel” and that decided me for the rest.) ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/34 "2009-06-29T20:20:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Please tell me you’re making that up. I wish I was. Want another one? Spoilered, because it’s slightly… foul: Remember how Jessica is actually Baron Harkonnen’s daughter? In the prequels, Reverend Mother Mohiam is Jessica’s mother. She blackmails the Baron, who at the time is muscular and athletic, into impregnating her. When the baby turns out sickly & deformed, she returns for another session. This time, the Baron drugs her with some paralysis-inducing drug and rather brutally rapes her. She uses her Reverend Mother super-vaginal powers to develop a drug/disease that she somehow injects/infects into him while he’s raping her, which causes him to become grossly obese. Why she doesn’t use her powers to counteract the paralyzing drug, I don’t recall. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/35 "2009-06-29T20:26:21Z")
Yes…that’s the one (single, only, unique) “prequel” that I actually read (as the utter blah of the prequels was only made known to me by actually reading that one around the time it came out). I was outraged by not just the stupid plotting, but by the complete ignoring of the Dune Encyclopedia as the history of the Imperium. I know, it’s not a Herbert book, but it was approved by Herbert (_pere_), and I read it way back in the late 80s, so it was working its way into my brain for a LONG time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/36 "2009-06-29T21:05:07Z")
But the _DE_ was already made non-canon by the last few Frank Herbert books. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/37 "2009-06-29T21:08:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But the _DE_ was already made non-canon by the last few Frank Herbert books. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/38 "2009-06-29T23:03:21Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I’m just glad that Frank’s son and some other hack writer didn’t piss all over his grave by writing a series of novels detailing the whole backstory of Dune, including the origins of the Fremen and such abominations as the Zenshiites. That would have been terrible. Wait, I can’t tell how much of this is joke and how much isn’t. Do those books go into the origins of the Fremen? Were there really Zenshiites? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/39 "2009-06-29T23:25:01Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Do those books go into the origins of the Fremen? > > Were there really Zenshiites? It does and there were. The books written by Herbert’s son weren’t very good, but I actually preferred them to Herbert’s Dune books, which I thought were pretty awful. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/40 "2009-06-30T01:20:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Wait, I can’t tell how much of this is joke and how much isn’t. > > Do those books go into the origins of the Fremen? > > Were there really Zenshiites? None of it was a joke. The books describe in great detail the origins of the Fremen. There were Zenshiites, who worshipped Budallah. Really, there’s no point using one’s imagination to come up with fake slanders against the prequel books. Go read the link that **Bridget Burke** posted. That’s from the immediate prequels, not the long ago ones, but they are if anything worse. “Garon set his thopter down atop a pile of crisped human remains” indeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187.md?page=3)