# "Dune" nitpick: Why "Zensunni"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 27, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187 "2009-06-27T18:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/41 "2009-06-30T01:56:14Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > None of it was a joke. The books describe in great detail the origins of the Fremen. There were Zenshiites, who worshipped Budallah. Really, there’s no point using one’s imagination to come up with fake slanders against the prequel books. Go read the link that **Bridget Burke** posted. That’s from the immediate prequels, not the long ago ones, but they are if anything worse. “Garon set his thopter down atop a pile of crisped human remains” indeed. Heh. “Budallah.” But regarding Bridget Burke’s link, I don’t care for the writing, but it doesn’t seem so ludicrous to me that there might be amusement parks with Sandworm rides somewhere in the Dune universe prior to the events of Dune. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/42 "2009-06-30T02:08:48Z")
The DE has a huge section on the O.C. Bible, here’s a snip of what it has to say about the name specifically: "…One of the hardest decisions for the C.E.T. was not merely to establish the contents of their Bible but to agree upon a title, one that would be brief yet broadly descriptive, one that would reflect the ecumenical spirit without appearing narrowly exclusive. In early fragments of his memoirs, Bertoli refers to it as the Koranjiyana Zenchristian Scriptures, or as the Zenchristian Navakoran, but after the fourth year it seems to be settled in his mind, at least, that Orange Catholic Bible was to be the name. We must suppose that a day or a week was given over to settling what may have become an embarrassing dispute. The terms “orange” and “catholic” do, however, seem to have established themselves as reflecting the more innovative and rational as opposed to the more conservative and traditional schools of thought, sometimes being used quite lightly, if we may judge by odd remarks of Bertoli–“what a delightfully pompous catholic statement”, “Catholic to a See”, “utterly Orange is the only word to describe that nonsense”, “for an Orange, that little acolyte of Bruin’s is quite a peach”, “all of those oranges are bananas” – remarks not at all clear to us now, but some were clearly meant as witticisms. The origin of the term Orange as applied to a religious sectarian is now obscure but its religious significance is so overwhelming nowadays that few remember it as the ancient name of a fruit now called portyguls. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/43 "2009-06-30T02:08:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Heh. “Budallah.” > > But regarding Bridget Burke’s link, I don’t care for the writing, but it doesn’t seem so ludicrous to me that there might be amusement parks with Sandworm rides somewhere in the Dune universe prior to the events of Dune. I’m not sure why they would be. The sandworms were pretty obscure to the Imperium at large. Before the events of Dune, the only people who knew they had anything at all to do with melange were the Fremen, the Guild and the Bene Gesserit. The Atreides had no idea until after Paul started experiencing prescience. It’s the utter banality of it that gets me. The pre-Atreides Imperium (and the post-Atreides Imperium, for that matter) had a certain feel to it, in the books, and big plastic fake sandworms as amusement park mascots weren’t it. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/44 "2009-06-30T02:20:34Z")
…and with regards to the canonity (canonessence?) of the DE itself, here’s the foreword in the DE from FH (since I’m now going to be up all night rereading this stuff ;): "Here is a rich background (and foreground) for the Dune Chronicles, including scholarly bypaths and amusing sidelights. Some of the contributions are sure to arouse controversy, based as they are on questionable sources. Others round out long speculation. Specialists have had their field day here with problems geological, biological, astronomical, and mystical, with pronunciations, major biographies, histories and accounts of little known figures. The range of topics is catholic: cf. from games for amusement to games of life and death (Cheops or Pyramid Chess to “The Assassin’s Handbook”). The history of the Financial Synod which spawned CHOAM gets its first airing in these pages. In fact, many secrets hidden in the Dune Chronicles are answered here. How did Irulan first gain and then arouse the displeasure of Ghanima? Who was Jehanne Butler and why does the Butlerian Jihad carry her name? What are the hidden origins of the Spacing Guild? Where did spice-trance navigational techniques develop? What was Leto II’s private opinion of Holy Sister Quintinius Violet Chenoeh? Does Cheops have something in common with the three body problem? I must confess that I found it fascinating to re-enter here some of the sources on which the Chronicles are built. As the first “Dune fan”, I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold." -Frank Herbert, Port Townsend WA, November, 1983. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/45 "2009-06-30T07:27:25Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > How so? Well, the nature of axolotl tanks, for a start. DE quite clearly states that they are a) mechanical artificial wombs and b) not invented by the Tleilaxu, only perfected. Of course, the later FH books contradict this quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/46 "2009-06-30T12:03:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, the nature of axolotl tanks, for a start. DE quite clearly states that they are a) mechanical artificial wombs and b) not invented by the Tleilaxu, only perfected. Of course, the later FH books contradict this quite a bit. The beautiful thing about the DE is the literary conceit that it’s a collection of scholarship derived from a vast array of sources (but mostly the Dar es Balat finds of Leto’s journals). Some of it is accurate and correct. Some of it is obviously meant to mock the academic form (the skeptical article about Muad’Dib not possibly being the actual Paul Atreides). If Chapterhouse and Heretics contradict something in the DE…it was one of the speculative articles! I do not extend this mercy to anything co-written, approved or sponsored by the son. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/47 "2009-06-30T13:55:38Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s the utter banality of it that gets me. The pre-Atreides Imperium (and the post-Atreides Imperium, for that matter) had a certain feel to it, in the books, and big plastic fake sandworms as amusement park mascots weren’t it. You know what it reminds me of? “Bored of the Rings”, and Dicky Dragon as the mascot of Serutan’s amusement park. Except this time it isn’t a parody. ---
**Author:** ![SLambert17](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@SLambert17](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SLambert17)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/48 "2014-06-15T20:32:20Z")
The oc bible comes from Irish origins imho. The protestants were considered orange and the Catholic population green. The Irish flag has orange and green stripes separated by a white stripe to symbolize unity under a common theme of being Irish. It appears to be a juxtaposition of two disparate systems being united under one canonical text. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/49 "2014-06-15T20:58:06Z")
Ghola thread! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/50 "2014-06-15T20:59:49Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Ghola thread! I haven’t wanted a “like” button this much in years… ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/51 "2014-06-15T21:10:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Fremen are described as “Zensunni wanderers,” but, so far as I can tell, nothing in their beliefs shows any Buddhist or Muslim influence. I can see some Sufism in it, but very little Zen. But who the fuck knows what kind of religious bulls … aaargghh. Dune zombie thread. (makes horns sign with hand, invokes Shai-Hulud) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/52 "2014-06-15T21:11:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I haven’t wanted a “like” button this much in years… I must agree. But you know the abuse that sort of the thing leads to … ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/53 "2014-06-15T21:50:27Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Dune takes place 20,000 years in the future. Lord only knows if we’d even recognize any of today’s faiths at that point. IIRC the Jews are still around in a recognizable form. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > I wish I was. Want another one? Spoilered, because it’s slightly… foul: > > Remember how Jessica is actually Baron Harkonnen’s daughter? In the prequels, Reverend Mother Mohiam is Jessica’s mother. She blackmails the Baron, who at the time is muscular and athletic, into impregnating her. When the baby turns out sickly & deformed, she returns for another session. This time, the Baron drugs her with some paralysis-inducing drug and rather brutally rapes her. She uses her Reverend Mother super-vaginal powers to develop a drug/disease that she somehow injects/infects into him while he’s raping her, which causes him to become grossly obese. Why she doesn’t use her powers to counteract the paralyzing drug, I don’t recall. Well to be fair… …… Mohiam still needs Haronnen to impregnate her so there’s not much reason to stop the rape. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/54 "2014-06-15T22:17:29Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > IIRC the Jews are still around in a recognizable form. I always thought that was a mistake on Herbert’s part. Hell, the Jews of today don’t even come close to culturally resembling the Jews of Roman Judea, and that’s only 2000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/55 "2014-06-16T03:04:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Ghola thread! Okay, that was funny. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187/56 "2014-06-16T15:51:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I always thought that was a mistake on Herbert’s part. Hell, the Jews of today don’t even come close to culturally resembling the Jews of Roman Judea, and that’s only 2000 years. Given that they are using “wild” Reverend Mothers, it is possible that they recovered a more ancient version of their faith that way. Although I would expect a shift away from the patriarchal Rabbi-dominated faith which they seem to have developed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-nitpick-why-zensunni/501187.md?page=2)