# "Dune" question: Why did the Emperor side with Harkonnen against Atreides? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-question-why-did-the-emperor-side-with-harkonnen-against-atreides/562568 "2010-12-01T17:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-question-why-did-the-emperor-side-with-harkonnen-against-atreides/562568/61 "2010-12-03T14:23:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ditto. > > On the other hand, the _Dune Encyclopaedia_ is still my treasured possession. It’ll always be the real story of the BJ to me. Absolutely. I’m sure some folks have recognized my source for my posts as the Encyclopedia already. Junior and Hackerson have no status in _my_ Duniverse. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-question-why-did-the-emperor-side-with-harkonnen-against-atreides/562568/62 "2010-12-03T14:29:24Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > That’s definitely not right. The Weirding Modules in the movie were a substitute for the “Weirding Way” martial arts that Paul taught the Fremen in the book. And that was derived from the Bene-Gesserit martial arts (and I’m still pretty sure that Paul was familiar with it because it had been used earlier to train the Atredies troops). So at least some troops in the books do get Bene Gesserit training. I don’t think any Atreides troops got any BG training. At the beginning of Dune, Gurney was still better than Paul (“mood’s a thing for cattle, or lovemaking”), and Paul was getting illegal BG training at the time. Remember that at the Gom Jabbar trial, the Reverend Mother noticed that he had some BG training, and told Jessica afterwards to continue & accelerate his training, and forget the guidelines. ETA: I’m willing to believe that Thufir was telling the truth, and there were Atreides troops who were getting as good as the Sardaukar. I just don’t think that had anything to do with BG methods - after all, the Sardaukar themselves weren’t BG trained. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-question-why-did-the-emperor-side-with-harkonnen-against-atreides/562568/63 "2010-12-03T14:51:46Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Also note that Shaddam – unlike Leto and Vladimir – apparently did not have a mentat advising him. We see and meet the Emperor’s main advisors, and they’re all BG or Fenring (effectively BG); no mentat. > > So while Leto deduced the worth and numbers of the Fremen with the help of his mentat, it is not surprising that Shaddam had not put together all the obscure facts about the Fremen to realize the threat. > > edit: Also, wasn’t Fenring watching the smugglers on Arrakis? I seem to recall the Harkonnen calling him “imperial ambassador to the smugglers” or somesuch. Good point about Shaddam’s lack of mentat support and I think you’re right about the “ambassador to the smugglers” thing. The idea being that the smugglers provided an alternative route on and off Arrakis for people, information, and Spice. Definitely worth keeping an eye on. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > I don’t think any Atreides troops got any BG training. At the beginning of Dune, Gurney was still better than Paul (“mood’s a thing for cattle, or lovemaking”), and Paul was getting illegal BG training at the time. Remember that at the Gom Jabbar trial, the Reverend Mother noticed that he had some BG training, and told Jessica afterwards to continue & accelerate his training, and forget the guidelines. > > ETA: I’m willing to believe that Thufir was telling the truth, and there were Atreides troops who were getting as good as the Sardaukar. I just don’t think that had anything to do with BG methods - after all, the Sardaukar themselves weren’t BG trained. Agreed, the BG Way was not the same as the military techniques used and taught by Gurney and Duncan - presumably the Way was designed for the female BG adepts, a completely different type to a male warrior. It was Jessica and particularly Paul that brought them together in training the Fremen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-question-why-did-the-emperor-side-with-harkonnen-against-atreides/562568.md?page=3)