I don’t think it was a con job…the conditioning existed and was trusted for too long before the apparent first breaking of it. The Suk School DID discourage their graduates from having that kind of relationship, though, so apparently they were aware that it was POSSIBLE to break it through that sort of blackmail.
And she was Bene Gesserit, right? I guess all that perfect control over every muscle of her body makes her husband, um, extra devoted to her.
It just means that Bene Gesserit conditioning > Suk School Conditioning.
I guess it’s only because there was no mention of any Atreides troops who were better than Sardaukar in the whole first half of the book while Leto was alive. Unless you’re counting Duncan & Gurney, and I always thought that specialist swordmasters were allowed to be better than Sardaukar. I don’t think there was ever any claim that the lowliest private Sardaukar was a more deadly killer than anyone else in the galaxy (besides other Sardaukar).
Are you sure? It has been years since I read it, but I seem to remember Leto’s troops being mentioned as the equals of the Emperor’s, and that was one reason that he wanted to destroy House Atreides.
I remember it that way to. Jessica had integrated some Bene Gesserit teachings in the training program for the Atreides troops with the result that they were the equal of Sardukar. Thats why the Baron needed troops from the Emperor to help with his trap.
Grated its probably been more then a decade since I read those books, so my recall might be flawed.
You may be getting things mixed up with the Lynch movie. The quality of the Atreides troops (prior to the Fremen) was in their loyalty and morale. They loved their Duke, who had, in many cases, rescued either themselves or loved ones from Harkonnen slavery (this was true of both Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho). Their training was superb, but it was purely military. Only in the movie were any “Bene Gesserit” (scare quotes because “weirding modules” did not exist in the books) techniques added to anyone’s training, and even that was only done after House Atreides was scattered and Paul was training the Fremen to be his shock troops.
It wasn’t primarily the Atreides troops that frightened the Emperor. It was a combination of Leto’s personal charisma and ability to inspire absolute loyalty, and his sincere adherence to honor and nobility. Shaddam wasn’t a very good Emperor…even the BG more or less despised him for his inattention to the Imperium. He knew that Leto Atreides was a threat, not because he was ambitious, but because he was too good. The balance of power had always been very delicate, and a powerful man who was sincerely good and fair was, in a power structure that was inherently cynical and ruthless, a pendulum held in check by the thinnest of threads.
Are you sure of this? I always retained the impression that Shaddam was one powerful Emperor, playing everyone against each other (Pratchett’s Vetinari style) and still being very much on top of things, while having the most feared troops in the Universe. I always thought that the Emperor was wary of a revolt of the Landsraad with Leto at their head against Imperial rule. But not fearing a next Emperor, just fearing feudal rebellion.
Much of the grasp I got from Dune was playing the 70’s boardgame. I read the book after, but kept the flavor and mood of the game in my head. So, it could just be me (though I’ve never liked the wimpish Emperor shitting in his pants facing Edric in the Dune movie; and a powerful Emperor rather than a weakly, despisable one contributes to a better story).
That’s definitely not right. The Weirding Modules in the movie were a substitute for the “Weirding Way” martial arts that Paul taught the Fremen in the book. And that was derived from the Bene-Gesserit martial arts (and I’m still pretty sure that Paul was familiar with it because it had been used earlier to train the Atredies troops). So at least some troops in the books do get Bene Gesserit training.
Shaddam’s major interest was the Sardaukar. He played politics, but mostly by proxy (Count Fenring being that proxy). If he were good at politics himself, he wouldn’t have gotten trapped in the Bene Gesserit ploy that made only the children of his Bene Gesserit consort legitimate heirs, thus ensuring that the BG would decide who succeeded him (if things had gone according to their plans rather than the way they did). Any political successes he had were due to Fenring’s skillful and smooth manipulation and bribes to the right people.
Actually, I think you’re right on this one. My mistake…I’d forgotten about that part.
I’m pretty sure at one point in the book, Thufir told the Baron that the reason the Emperor took out the Atreides was because the Atreides had a small group of troops as good as Sardukar, and was in a position to expand that group.
As mentioned, it’s possible this was misdirection on Thufir’s part, but as I recall it was sort of a “Duh, how can you not know this?” outburst from Thufir, so Herbert wasn’t doing much to signal it as conscious misdirection, and since a lot of the book is about which uberwarriors do in fact have the best kung-fu – I mean, knife-fighting abilities, which will allow them to rule the Galaxy, it makes sense within the book. Of course this reason doesn’t contradict the idea of the Emperor fearing the Duke as someone the Lansraad might rally behind; both could contribute to the decision.
I don’t believe the book mentions any specifics about the Atreides training, but Paul and Jessica did incorporate some esoteric stuff when they were working with the Fremen.
Wow, I think I’ve spent way too much time re-reading that book… <off to find book recommendation threads…>
I always read that to indicate that Hawat was trying to get the Baron back to Arrakis…by calling his attention to the Fremen’s true numbers and the fact that they COULD be better than the Sardaukar. I could have been wrong.
It’s been years since I read the book, but I recall Herbert writing that Dune was “about” the control, not of oil, but water.
I’m not sure how canonical the books by his son are, but there’s a trilogy set in the very beginning- before the Empire and the Great Houses. The trilogy basically describes the war against the Thinking Machines, and along the way, describes the foundation of most of the institutions seen in Dune.
I don’t know if they’re canonical officially or not, but they’re definitely not canonical for me. Junior and Kevin Hackerson basically had a dry-hump three-way with Pop’s legacy.
The way I remember it, and it’s been awhile for me too, is that only Paul recieved BG training from Jessica (and mentat training from Hawat) on Caladan. It was the training of Duncan and Gurney, swordmasters who were legends in the own time, combined with the loyalty the Duke inspired, that made the Atredies fighting men so bad ass. At least that’s how Hawat explained it to the Baron. Jessica trained Paul in the BG way because he might be the KH, and they both trained the Fremen because they were like, fuck the empire, at that point.
I seem to recall something in the appendices about the Emperor cutting the budget for Sardaukar training in the last few years before the attack on the Atreides.
So I read it as a slightly decadent Emperor, juggling many political factions, and conscious of the fact that he was in a weaker position than his ancestors.
Leto was popular, and competent. So the Emperor viewed him as a threat.
Ditto.
On the other hand, the Dune Encyclopaedia is still my treasured possession. It’ll always be the real story of the BJ to me.
I’m with **Quercus **and **Blake **on this - I took Thufir’s statements at face value. The small cadre of Atreides troops trained by Gurney and Duncan were approaching the level of the Sardukar and they were in a position to recruit more. I had always taken it as read that individuals and small groups could be as good as or better than a similar sized group of Sardukar - the problem for the other Houses was that ALL the legions of Sardukar were of this standard.
From that same passage you can also see that Thufir, and presumably Duke Leto, understood the significance of the harsh conditions of Salusa Secundus in providing the Emperor with a whole army of super soldiers. If they did it implies they saw the potential of Arrakis in providing a new pool of potential recruits brought up in an equally hard environment even before they arrived and explains why they walked into the trap.
As to the OP, I agree the Emperor wanted to destroy Duke Leto and his beautifully trained army because, if it was expanded and combined with Leto’s popularity, they could become a real threat to House Corrino. This begs the question, “Why give them Arrakis and its pool of potential recruits rather than any other planet ?” and the answer has to be to make use of the Harkonnen, the only House that would allow the Emperor to use their troops as cover for the Sardukar.
Presumably, at this stage, the Emperor did not realise the potential of the Fremen and the possible opportunity they gave to House Atreides. It was only after the invasion that the Sardukar realised what formidable fighting men the Fremen were. Given they were getting much of their information from Liet-Kynes as Imperial Planetologist it is not surprising they did not recognise the numbers and potential of the Fremen! As Imperial Agent on Arrakis, Count Fenring would have been watching the Harkonnen and the Spice production - not insignificant desert scum.
Also note that Shaddam – unlike Leto and Vladimir – apparently did not have a mentat advising him. We see and meet the Emperor’s main advisors, and they’re all BG or Fenring (effectively BG); no mentat.
So while Leto deduced the worth and numbers of the Fremen with the help of his mentat, it is not surprising that Shaddam had not put together all the obscure facts about the Fremen to realize the threat.
edit: Also, wasn’t Fenring watching the smugglers on Arrakis? I seem to recall the Harkonnen calling him “imperial ambassador to the smugglers” or somesuch.