# Dune: Seminal SF Classic Or Pompous Tosh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945 "2006-01-01T11:19:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/81 "2006-01-06T17:17:02Z")
> [@ed](#): > > Beaten on this, but this is strictly the movie (the sound-thingies were not in the book at all). I guess it’s just Lynch’s version of the special fighting technique of the Atreides troops. It is odd how the movie doesn’t seem to touch the social darwinism aspects of what makes a good warrior group whatsoever. It’s a major theme of the book: special training for Leto’s new troops, the Emporer having a whole prison planet devoted to seperating the strongest from the rest to create his terror troops, the Fremen being so fierce because the weakest are killed off in The Beast Rabban’s attempts to eliminate them. The movie doesn’t really touch on it too much. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/82 "2006-01-06T18:04:05Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I guess it’s just Lynch’s version of the special fighting technique of the Atreides troops. It is odd how the movie doesn’t seem to touch the social darwinism aspects of what makes a good warrior group whatsoever. It’s a major theme of the book: special training for Leto’s new troops, the Emporer having a whole prison planet devoted to seperating the strongest from the rest to create his terror troops, the Fremen being so fierce because the weakest are killed off in The Beast Rabban’s attempts to eliminate them. The movie doesn’t really touch on it too much. The movie doesn’t touch on it at all to my mind. I loved the visuals of the movie, sets, costumes, props were all beautiful and well made, the screenplay and plot, for me, stunk. The book, I agree, one of the top 5 science-fiction books of the 20th century. I was entranced as a teenager when I read it. I re-read it almost once a year, just as I re-read _Lord of the Rings_ once a year. I especially like the nuance and tension of the dinner-party that the Atreides had after they assumed power on Arrakis. The subtle word-play, the political machinations and the revelations were very well written. I enjoyed the sequels, I thought _Children of Dune_ was mediocre. _God Emporer of Dune_ was excellent story-telling, how many sequels take place 3000 years after the previous book anyway? The next sequels were even more fascinating for me. I’ve never read the prequels or indeed, anything by Brian Herbert, I’m scared I’ll be bored so I pass them by. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/83 "2006-01-06T19:08:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I guess it’s just Lynch’s version of the special fighting technique of the Atreides troops. It is odd how the movie doesn’t seem to touch the social darwinism aspects of what makes a good warrior group whatsoever. It’s a major theme of the book: special training for Leto’s new troops, the Emporer having a whole prison planet devoted to seperating the strongest from the rest to create his terror troops, the Fremen being so fierce because the weakest are killed off in The Beast Rabban’s attempts to eliminate them. The movie doesn’t really touch on it too much. Yeah - Harkonnen trying to make Feyd the saviour so that he can reap the Fremen benefits. Alas for the poor baron that Harkonnen goonery is so much inferior to Sardaukar or native Arakeen techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/84 "2006-01-06T19:16:00Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > As a measure of my taste, I prefer Robert Silverberg’s _Lord Valentine’s Castle_, which I think is a readily comparable book: written around the same time, about the same scope and length, a similar setting of a exotic alien world with an anachronistic political system, and a mix of fantasy, SF, and fairy-tale. …and unfortunately sullied by vastly inferior sequels. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/85 "2006-01-06T20:00:47Z")
I read every Dune book from the first up through Chapterhouse: Dune (which, along with its immediate predecessor, Heretics of…, sucked donkey). Even though I basically enjoyed the series, I could see the seams showing almost right away. Just as a quick example before I head of to a meeting: Because everone in the first book spends such great deal of time talking so much about what an incredible person Duncan Idaho is, it’s rather easy to overlook the fact that we only see him twice: once when he strides into some conference to deliver a report and receive instructions, and once when he’s being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/86 "2006-01-06T21:42:47Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > …and unfortunately sullied by vastly inferior sequels. Isn’t it always the way? _Valentine Pontifex_ wasn’t bad, since it expanded considerably on who and what the dragons were, but the rest were just rent-payers. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/87 "2006-01-08T03:34:19Z")
> [@ed](#): > > I think it’s reasonably clear by the end of the book that the setup is a result of the unstable balance between Houses. There’s a lot of fuss made about how delicate the Lansraad vs the Emperor’s House is, and that Leto is becoming seriously popular there. I don’t think your perception that Leto has no ambition for the throne is completely correct: he may not be plotting a violent overthrow, but through political weight he could gain enough support to shift the power balance away from House Corrino (the Emperor’s House), and with his well trained military could back it up with force if need be. Presumably, this is how Corrino came into power previously, so it’s certainly something to be prevented from Shaddam’s point of view. We never get to see enough of Leto’s motives to know whether he really wants the throne, but the Emperor just assumes he wants it, along with pretty much everyone else. Leto’s too much like the Emperor, is becoming too popular, has developed a very well trained military, and as a result is becoming increasingly a threat to the throne. Also, in at least a few ways, Leto was shown to be very ambitious, hence the whole “not marrying Jessica to increase likeability” factor: he wanted to gain support through any means possible. The Padishah Emperor’s power seems to come from three sources: support of the Lansraad, controlling number of votes in CHOAM, and the Saudarkar. Duke Leto’s popularity was eclipsing the Emperor’s support in the Landsraad. The Atreides troops trained by Hawat and Idaho were rivaling the Saudarkar. And the Atreides apparently had a large bloc of votes in CHOAM – so much so that the Duke could not justifiably turn down the Arrakis fiefdom, even though he knew it to be a trap. The spice monopoly gave too much of a CHOAM boost for him to turn down, especially for someone that was eying the throne. So Duke Leto does, indeed, seem to have had ambitions toward the throne. The weirding way and the Fremen don’t play a part into the threat from House Atreides posed by Duke Leto, though. Those were assets that Paul later exploited. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/88 "2006-01-08T07:20:03Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The weirding way and the Fremen don’t play a part into the threat from House Atreides posed by Duke Leto, though. Those were assets that Paul later exploited. Athough Leto did sense the military potential of the Fremen and make overtures to them early on, whereas Baron Harkonnen disdained them as rabble and had Rabban hunt them out of hand: he didn’t cotton on that they might be exploited as an elite fighting force until Thufir Hawat pointed out the losses they were inflicting on his troops. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/89 "2006-01-12T04:35:26Z")
One difference between the book and the movie is that the Harkkonen’s aren’t… [spoiler]blood-drinking freaks! You know how, in the movie, the baron pulls the heart plug of a blonde young thing and drinks up! [/quote] The book is a _bit_ more subtle. You can almost see the Harkkonens’ side of things. And Feyd is cool. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/90 "2006-01-12T04:37:09Z")
Damn! Mod, please fix, pretty please? (And I’ve been so good about previewing lately, too.:() ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/91 "2006-01-12T07:05:37Z")
personally I Loved dune, others have already pointed out the many strong points of the book, but one thing that doesnt seem to be mentioned is the way the different groups take their training to a massive extreme to produce the best of the best. the Bene Gessret gain their powers from their extensive training starting early and ongoing for life and the next generation improves on the last, they have a century spanning veiw that we STILL lack today, Dune is history making in its layering and style, it cracks me up that people are hung up on lasguns (note these are NOT lazers) having some reaction with a purely SF shield. for another great Herbert book thats not dune or even particullarly dune like check out the Dosadi Experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/92 "2006-01-12T10:08:54Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The book is a _bit_ more subtle. You can almost see the Harkkonens’ side of things. And Feyd is cool. Oh yeah, I remember that Feyd was pretty cool in the books. I mean, he wasn’t a good guy by any means, what with his going to the slave stables to visit his favorite women, but a lot better than his dad (who had the aforementioned female slaves killed just to punish his son). I really did hope he would get a chance to overthrow his dad before Paul put an end to him. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/93 "2006-01-12T11:08:32Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Oh yeah, I remember that Feyd was pretty cool in the books. I mean, he wasn’t a good guy by any means, what with his going to the slave stables to visit his favorite women, but a lot better than his dad (who had the aforementioned female slaves killed just to punish his son). I really did hope he would get a chance to overthrow his dad before Paul put an end to him. **Aeschines** , he didn’t drink freshly-squeezed hamsters, either. Feyd was a nasty bastard, though: remember the trick he pulled with the Atreides gladiator, whom he permitted to believe that he stood a chance against him in the arena, and then double-crossed and killed him in order to score PR points? Paul at least fought fair, even against Feyd at the end. And the Baron ordered Feyd to kill the women and the slave-master because Feyd had just attempted to assassinate him with a poisoned needle concealed in a slave boy’s thigh. How very different from the home life of our own dear Duke. My memory of the book is getting blurred at this point: the Baron “permitted himself to be seduced” in his youth so that the Bene Gesserit could produce a Harkonnen male heir who could be bred with a Atreides female heir {an order whih Jessica denied} in order to hopefully produce the Kwisatz Haderach, but the relationship between Feyd Rautha and the Baron is that of uncle and nephew - were they aware that they were father and son? {Damn this book: the more you guys are arguing its merits, the deeper I have to look into it. I may even be forced into revising my initial stance.} ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/94 "2006-01-12T14:19:46Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > My memory of the book is getting blurred at this point: the Baron “permitted himself to be seduced” in his youth so that the Bene Gesserit could produce a Harkonnen male heir who could be bred with a Atreides female heir {an order whih Jessica denied} in order to hopefully produce the Kwisatz Haderach, but the relationship between Feyd Rautha and the Baron is that of uncle and nephew - were they aware that they were father and son? > > {Damn this book: the more you guys are arguing its merits, the deeper I have to look into it. I may even be forced into revising my initial stance.} Jessica (Paul’s mother) was the daughter of Baron Harkonnen and that nameless Bene Gesserit breeder who seduced him. That breeding was intended to produce a _female_ Harkonnen (Jessica), which it did. Jessica was ordered to produce a female _Atreides_ (one generation later), which she did not – instead producing Paul to give Leto the heir that _he_ wanted. Feyd was the Baron’s nephew, not his son. Paul and Alia were the Baron’s grandchildren (although he didn’t know it until creepy Alia told him just before she killed him). > [@Critical1](#): > > for another great Herbert book thats not dune or even particullarly dune like check out the Dosadi Experiment. A lot of Herbert’s other work is interesting, because of the themes and ideas that keep showing up repeatidly in his work. I just re-read _Destination: Void_ – where the clone dopplegangers were produced in… axolotl tanks. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/95 "2006-01-12T15:06:55Z")
I always thought Paul was kind of dumb to actually proceed with terraforming Dune/Arrakis. The only value that planet had to anybody other than the Fremen was the spice. Then again, I’ve only seen the movie adaptations, so maybe I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/96 "2006-01-12T17:45:07Z")
It was Leto II (Paul’s son) who figured out the whole sandworm life-cycle, including the sandtrout, and it’s role in regulating the planet’s ecosystem/biosphere/whatever. It’s not really clear if Paul understood that by greening up Arrakis it would cause the decline of the sandworms (as seen in _God-Emperor of Dune_). Paul, on the other hand, needed to keep his fanatic Fremen troops satisfied – and since he’d let them think he was their Mahadi, then he had to do what they expected of the Mahadi, which included bringing open water to Arrakis. There’s the point where Lynch really went overboard; Paul used the Mahadi legend, but Lynch made Paul into the literal Mahadi, which certainly wasn’t explicit in Herbert’s text (particularly in his conjuring up a rainstorm). ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/97 "2006-01-12T19:03:04Z")
I bought _Dune_ today at the used bookstore and am going to read it again. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/98 "2006-01-12T20:15:19Z")
How did I not see this thread for so long? As you may be able to tell by my user name, I am a total Frank Herbert fangirl. I adored Dune when I read it (at age 17) and I still love it 15 years later. One thing I’ve noticed in this thread is that many people are confusing the book with the movie. The movie had many things that were different from the book. In general, the movie “dumbed down” the book a great deal. So put the thoughts of the weirding modules and rain on Arrakis out of your mind. They didn’t exist in the book. I think the first three books are fantastic. The thing is, you can’t continue to look at Paul as a perfect hero who’s always right, which is why so many people can’t even get through book 2 (Dune Messiah). To use an analogy, in the first book you think he’s Luke Skywalker, but in the next two you find out he’s really more like Darth Vader. He uses the Fremen and adopts a religious mantle for one purpose: revenge. And by doing this he makes some major errors. He begins the ecological transformation of Dune because he is forced to. He promised the Fremen their dream, without realizing the consequence of doing so. He creates a new Dynasty, and sees the decadence of it almost immediately, but is locked into it because he adopted the messiah persona and because of his prescience. Eventually he realizes that he must demystify himself and let go of his power in order to avoid much chaos and death. As for Dr. Yueh, I think it’s important to note that Yueh doesn’t kill the Atreides - he drugs them and shuts down the shield. I think this was a good way for Frank Herbert to show that the Baron hasn’t so much cracked the Suk training as found a way around it. He doesn’t ask Yueh to harm them, so he’s not really going against his training not to harm or kill them _directly_. This is the kind of stuff us Dune freaks will argue about for days on the Dune discussion sites, BTW. I especially love the beginning of Dune. The scene with him and the Reverend Mother Superior with the box is riveting. The dinner scene at the palace on Dune puts you behind the eyes of Paul and Jessica so that you get to feel that their training and insight is yours, too. Anyway, I admit the book does have shortcomings (just like most books) such as the breaking of the Suk training, but then again so did Shakespeare, so I’m not too concerned about that. What I like is that I can always go back and read it again and enjoy the rich descriptions and the characters and the story on its many levels. A word on the prequels: I think many people would get some enjoyment from the “House” trilogy, as it has all the old favorite characters: Jessica, Shaddam, Fenring, the Baron. BUT the writing style is inferior, so don’t expect another Dune. In my opinion, the Butlerian Jihad books were crap. I wouldn’t bother unless you’re a hopeless Dunatic like me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/99 "2006-01-12T20:22:10Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Jessica (Paul’s mother) was the daughter of Baron Harkonnen and that nameless Bene Gesserit breeder who seduced him. That breeding was intended to produce a _female_ Harkonnen (Jessica), which it did. Ah! I’d forgotten that bit. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945/100 "2006-01-13T06:57:55Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > It was Leto II (Paul’s son) who figured out the whole sandworm life-cycle, including the sandtrout, and it’s role in regulating the planet’s ecosystem/biosphere/whatever. Nitpick: It was Leto III (Paul’s second son) who did all that, Leto II was killed by the Sardukar as a baby just before the breaching of the barrier wall in the first Dune book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-seminal-sf-classic-or-pompous-tosh/337945.md?page=6)