I’d say MrDibble got it right ('way back in post #4). Especially the last sentence there.
On Babylon 5, he played one of Brother Theo’s monks, a very curious and friendly sort, who had a thing for making little trinkets to give as gifts to various ambassadors and station personel.
Of course, there was that whole thing with him formerly being the Black Rose Killer, but that was before the Death of Personality and his whole psychological rewrite which made him a productive member of society.
I think he also played a good guy or two in the Witch Mountain movies. IIRC, he played a set of twins there.
Generally speaking though, he is great if you want a shady, almost reptilian looking character. If he were in a Joss Whedon production, he’d either be a villian from the get go, or he’d initially serve to draw attention from the real villian, ala Simon Tam in the Firefly pilot.
I like the original Dune a lot, and while it has a lot of flaws, I think people are too quick to criticize percieved plot holes. If anything, I think the political aspects of the book are very well thought out and for the most part hold up once you realize all of the elements involved (unlike the science which is really not at all good).
A few points…
1.) Galactically speaking, the whole dependency on spice thing was a very new phenomenon. It allowed the space guild to travel faster and more efficiently than before, but no one really knew to what extent they depended on the stuff. The revelation that it is absolutely essential to the current power structure is a turning point at the end of the story, and it’s really a shock to a lot of people. Only a few people understand this from early on: the Guild and the Emporer, and ultimately Paul figures it out.
2.) The Emporer doesn’t have complete control, he is checked by the Houses. He can’t just waltz in and take control of the spice, because that would be overt and probably result in all the houses unifying against him, in which case he would lose. This is spelled out a few times early in the book. Additionally, no one really understands how spice is created, because no one understands the ecology of the planet. This is a deliberate theme in the book (raping an ecology for economic gain without bothering to understand it) and is discussed at length a few times.
3.) Regarding the Emporer putting the Atriedes on Arrakis, remember that this is done very deliberately. Atriedes is not liked by the Emporer, but well enough liked by the other houses that he can’t just be annihilated out of hand, so by dropping him into Arrakis he puts them in line for the Harkonnens (with undercover help from Sardaukar) to do his dirty work, while the rest of the Houses don’t interfere because they’re worried they’ll lose out on rights to (or end up disrupting further) spice production. It’s expected that they will make a temporary mess of spice production (pissing off the Houses) but not actually do any permanent damage.
4.) The critical element of Paul taking “control” of the spice is not that he kills Feyd, or even threatens the Emporer. The thing he has is a way to completely destroy the spice supply. This is completely new, because before him no one knew how or why it was created, since they never bothered to figure it out. Also, with the exception of the Guild itself, no one really understands just how dependent it is on the substance (hence the whole shocking revelation when we see the Guild member’s eye color). It’s mentioned in the book that the Guild was too afraid of the future to be able to take control of the source, worried that anything overt might upset their limited spice-overdosed-based-prescience and disrupt the production they depend on. By being the first person able to actually threaten the destruction of the spice he throws the whole power structure out of whack.
5.) Herbert really likes “The Emporer Has No Clothes” elements. The idea that revered institutions are declining in power and ability and that their perceived power and ability is, in fact, way overblown, is a central theme to the book. At the time of the story, many long-standing and highly respected institutions are failing in pretty obvious ways:
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The Bene Gesserit, who have run a genetic breeding program for centuries completely fail to recognize the product of their own efforts, who was right in front of their faces (there is an Appendix devoted to this)
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The Sardaukar, once the height of military prowess in the galaxy, are defeated rather handily in a very short span of time (there is an Appendix devoted to this as well)
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The Space Guild, the ultimate power in autonomy and control in the galaxy, turns out to be a bunch of drug addicts unable to control their own future
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Mentats turn out to be not nearly as infallible as people thought (see #6 below)
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The Suk School, thought to be the ultimate in conditioning, turned out to be a lot of hype. I think this was, from a literary perspective kind of on the weak side… (this conditioning is the BEST… HAR! fooled ya!) but the point seemed pretty clear that like a lot of things going on in the Empire, the school’s conditioning was more a result of people believing it was impervious than it actually being true.
6.) Paul was supposed to become a mentat, and was trained as such, but he eschews their methods intentionally because he feels they are far too limited in how they think. This is consistent with their ultimate failings, which are severe.
Of course, some people don’t like the somewhat radical premises used (Butlerian Jihad, shield technology) and I think that just boils down to a vague sense of taste. Personally, I kind of like the idea of a radical social change that eliminates all computers completely, although I think it’s pretty unlikely, so the story is intriguing to me. Of course, the entire story takes place in an alternate timeline (where the Roman Empire never fell) and ridiculously far in the future, so it’s sort of pointless to pick on these elements too much.
Also, IMO he manages to screw up a good thing with the sequels. There are good parts to them, but he doesn’t even respect his own source material (there are inconsistencies in some things, such as the powers of the spice, that really aggravate me).
But it’s never spelt out clearly why the Emperor has it in for House Atreides, which is crucial to the plot since they have to up sticks from Caladan and move to Arrakis as part of the Emperor’s set-up, but which sets all subsequent events in motion. If anything the Emperor seems to like, or at least admire, Duke Leto personally, and is rather regretful about some unspecified political necessity which involves throwing him to the Harkonnens.
It’s muttered that Leto is growing in popularity among the Minor Houses, but this doesn’t seem enough of a reason to betray him, since - unlike Baron Harkonnen - he has no ambtion for Imperial power. Then later in the book it’s mentioned that because Leto’s fighting force was starting to rival the Sardaukar in ability, he had to be pre-emptively chopped down to size: yet this seems a flimsy rationalisation, since Leto seemed happy enough being wise and fair on Caladan.
Strip away the pomposity and faux-intrigue, and you’re left with a fairy tale:
"Once upon a time there was a wise and kind old Duke, who lived happily with his family in the rich countryside and ruled his people fairly. But a wicked old Baron hated the duke, and whispered lies in the King’s ear that the Duke wanted the King’s throne for himself.
The King believed the wicked old Baron, and sent the Duke and his family from their beautiful countryside to a barren and faraway wilderness, full of dragons. Yet still the Baron hated the Duke, and sent his wicked soldiers to attack the Duke’s castle and kill his family. The wise old Duke was murdered, but his wife and son escaped to the forest, where they were taken in by a band of friendly outlaws.
The Duke’s son grew to manhood, and in his strength and wisdom became chief of the bandits, living in the forest with them and learning their outlaw ways, yet he never forgot the wicked Baron’s murder of his father, and swore his revenge, leading his bandits on raid after raid against the Baron’s soldiers." Etc, etc.
I think it’s reasonably clear by the end of the book that the setup is a result of the unstable balance between Houses. There’s a lot of fuss made about how delicate the Lansraad vs the Emperor’s House is, and that Leto is becoming seriously popular there. I don’t think your perception that Leto has no ambition for the throne is completely correct: he may not be plotting a violent overthrow, but through political weight he could gain enough support to shift the power balance away from House Corrino (the Emperor’s House), and with his well trained military could back it up with force if need be. Presumably, this is how Corrino came into power previously, so it’s certainly something to be prevented from Shaddam’s point of view. We never get to see enough of Leto’s motives to know whether he really wants the throne, but the Emperor just assumes he wants it, along with pretty much everyone else. Leto’s too much like the Emperor, is becoming too popular, has developed a very well trained military, and as a result is becoming increasingly a threat to the throne. Also, in at least a few ways, Leto was shown to be very ambitious, hence the whole “not marrying Jessica to increase likeability” factor: he wanted to gain support through any means possible.
This information is pretty sparse and you do have to put it together yourself, and I think that’s something you either like about Herbert, or don’t. I love it, but I’m not sure I could argue whether it’s “good” or “bad” objectively.
I can’t argue with the similarity to a fairy tale, and I don’t think anyone who likes the book would really disagree that that’s what it is, just told in a different setting and used as a vehicle for the issues he wanted to write about. I guess there are people that are bothered by that, and people that are not. Actually, I think his books got weaker when the basic story was made more complex, because when he had convoluted political, ecological, and religious themes mixed in with some strange plot turns, it sort of devolved into a big mess.
Actually, I don’t mean to defend it too much from the Pompous Tosh category. I guess you could chalk me into the “I think it’s both” vote, my opinion is that sometimes something can be waaay overdone and still have a lot of value. I just wanted to clear up some of the missing or misunderstood items from the plot that people seemed to be basing criticisms on. Of course, I think when you don’t like something, it’s hard to pay attention to the subtleties, and you end up figuring that the whole thing is an inconsistent mess even if it isn’t always. I’m this way with Matrix sequels… I know that there are probably reasons and explanations given for everything but I’m too bothered not enjoying myself to pay attention to any of it. 
House Atreides had recently perfected the “Weirding Way,” too. Was the Emperor aware of this new military capability, and wary of it?
Case Sensitive, you can reduce ANY really good literature to that sort of simplistic plot line. See if you recognize this one:
Mommy kills daddy and marries his brother. Son finds out from daddy’s ghost; not believing, he entraps mommy into admitting it. Son pretends to be crazy in order to flush mommy and lover out, so that he can have them killed, but dies in the process tragically.
I mean, you can do that with ANYTHING. Very few stories are really great because of some incredible understory.
After all, La Giaconda is just this girl, you know?
Weeeelll… “weirding way” is simply what the Fremen call the Bene Gesserit training, which Jessica had (against the wishes of the Bene Gesserit) taught Paul. Paul DOES teach some of this to the Fremen, but prior to the Harkonnen attack, Gurney, Duncan and Thufir did not know any of this training and like most everyone else, didn’t even know it existed to that degree (the “fist in the Bene Gesserit glove” that Jessica refers to). The Fremen had some early connection with the Bene Gesserit, centuries earlier, so they had witnessed these abilities and referred to them as “weirding” in their quirky way of naming things.
However, Leto had some of the most skilled swordsmen in the empire under him (maybe this is sort of an Arthurian legend thing, too, to help Case Sensitive’s point along some ) and was very specifically experimenting with training a relatively small but very highly adept group of fighters.
I liked him too.
I really liked Children of Dune, as well as Dune. God Emperor I did dislike very much, and that’s where I stopped. The books would never reach my list of greatest books of all time. They were entertaining, yes, and had a neat idea, but there are better books out there.
Had a more knowledgable person on the alt.fans.david-weber usenet group do some checking, and it seems that the Worlds of Honor books make numerous references to the Peoples’ Republic of Haven speaking French (especially Service of the Sword). Crown of Slaves also mentions that Havenites speak French. That said, apparantly none of the main books mention this Frenchiosity of the Havenites, and when they speak to eachother, they use turns of phrase that apparantly don’t happen in French (but maybe they will in 2000 years, who knows?).
You make a very good case for “good”, ed, and all who have argued for Dune’s merits: I’m really enjoying this thread.
I don’t think Dune is by any means a terrible book: it’s well-written, very evocative, as someone has pointed out, of its “once upon a time”, and I like the fairy-tale swashbuckling elements of the story - for me they’re the best part of the book, just so long as you don’t inspect them too closely. My chief objection to the book is that Herbert tries to load a relatively flimsy tale with too much political, psychological and mystical baggage, and it almost collapses under its own weight.
As a measure of my taste, I prefer Robert Silverberg’s Lord Valentine’s Castle, which I think is a readily comparable book: written around the same time, about the same scope and length, a similar setting of a exotic alien world with an anachronistic political system, and a mix of fantasy, SF, and fairy-tale. For me, though, LVC wins out over Dune in that Silverberg doesn’t try to attach too much weight to his tale, but is content with some good old-fashioned derring -do as the exiled king-turned-juggler tries to regain his throne. Your tastes naturally, may vary.
Via the Missionaria Protectiva and their legend-sowing, if I’m not mistaken.
Actually, IIRC, at one point Hawat tells Baron Harkonnen the real reason the Emperor helped him destroy the Atreides is because the Atreides had created a small force as good as the Sardauker, and the force was ready to expand. Of course, any political power by Leto would only make this military strength more dangerous to the Emperor.
Not entirely true. When House Atraides falls due to the treason of the doctor, one of the things he does is destroy the new sound weapons that the Dukes army has developed. These weapons are the “technique that is unknown to us” as the Harkonnen mentat calls them. When Thufer sees the burning weapons, he laments “The weirding modules!”. So, I always thought that the “weirding way” was the fighting technique of the atraides, including the sound blasters and methods of hand to hand and sword fighting.
When training the fremen, they toss some Bene Gesserit stuff into the mix as well, but I don’t think that’s all there is to it.
It’s funny that you mention this because I’m a big fan of Dune and I just finished reading “Pillers of the Earth” by Ken Follet. It was a good read and it reminded me a lot of Dune. The complex balances between economy, military and religion make up one’s power in both books.
I thought the weirding modules were mostly from the Lynch movie - in the book the key was that the Atreides had found a (vast) resevoir of potential troops who lived under conditions even harsher than that of the Sardaukar. The idea being that peoples who live under harsh conditions make better soldiers in direct proportion to the environmental misery then endure. The built in Bene Gesseritt mythos-induced loyalty/fanaticism was a plus though.
One of the things that I loathed about the prequels was the cause/nature of the Butlerian Jihad, and the prohibition on making machines in the form of man, machines that think. I had always envisaged the problem as having been more metaphorical than actual - a revolt against control by central planning, huge databases, big brother, rather than by freaking skynet (under whatever name). A luddite overreaction to a real problem rather than a desparate struggle against ee-villl cyborgs and huge sentient computers. By defining the prehistory rather than leaving it vague, it sucks much of the mystery and enjoyment out of the imperial past. (Plus it has the usual sequel issues that every woe and foe must be bigger and badder than those faced in previous works).
You may be right. I haven’t read the book in quite a while, but I see the Lynch movie occasionally.
Speaking of the movie, does anybody have any info on the possible release of an unedited full version? I’ve been hearing rumors about this for years, but it never seems to materialize.
It looks like amazon is selling a full version of Dune starting on Jan 31, 2006.
It’s 177 minutes instead of the regular version’s 136 minutes.
Thank you, Debaser, for sharing that. I’ve been hoping for the uncut version for so long that I had given up.
My take: Whether Dune is Pompous Tosh or not, I enjoyed it very much, and also enjoyed the sequels. I’m not too worried about plot holes, so take that as you will - if they bother you, then my recommendation to read them may not be as accurate.
This is a great thread. I appreciate all of the discussion. One thing that stood out to me, upon reading the first book, is that the ecological transformation of Arrakis would lead to extinction of the sandworms. This would then completely destroy Arrakis’s main cash crop and source of economic power. This theme was dealt with later in the series.
Beaten on this, but this is strictly the movie (the sound-thingies were not in the book at all). Weirding is a Fremen term used for anything that seems to be magical to them, in particular the Bene Gesserit tricks (Jessica is accused of using the “weirding voice” at one point). Also note that when Mapes refers to the “weirding room”, Jessica is very confused since the term is new to her.
As Case Sensitive mentioned, the Fremen culture encountered the Bene Gesserit via their Missionaria Protectiva, which was a branch of the BG devoted to planting pseudo-religious concepts into primitive cultures such that they could be exploited centuries later. This “seeding” included standard prophecies, rituals, songs, and language, which Jessica is able to recognize and use to her advantage. If not for this, they probably would have been killed out of hand when first encountered by the Fremen in the desert. What’s shocking to Jessica is just how much of this stuff they absorbed: not only were the cultural artifacts present and exploitable, they were still maintaining an unbroken line of Reverend Mothers. Of course, this backfires on Paul, because it’s how he loses control of the Jihad: by fulfilling the prophecies that the Fremen had absorbed, he becomes the catalyst of something he really has no control over.
And, to tie this back to the original discussion, I think the Missionaria concept is an example of one of the concepts that makes the book worthwhile (even if it’s not great literature per se). The idea of a matriarchal semi-mystic cultlike group that has the foresight (and lack of ethical constraints) to go around the galaxy implanting cultural and religious traditions so that they can be used to their member’s advantage some centuries later is pretty interesting, even if implausible. Throughout the book, we get to see how such a concept would work (in the end) and how it might actually cause more problems than it solves.
I completely agree, and I can’t put myself through the prequels because of things like this. A revolt against some form of malevolent supercomputer is a waste of space, it’s been done to death (and better) by countless books and movies. What I always liked about the Butlerian Jihad is, as you say, that it’s a cultural and social thing. It’s sort of the counterpoint to an Asimov story, because instead of exploring what happens when we create some other intelligence, we get to explore what happens when a society conciously decides that doing so is not something it wants to be a part of, and undergoes massive social change to avoid it. It’s not completely believable, but not completely implausible, either.