# Dune vs. Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713 "2001-11-28T15:32:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/21 "2001-12-02T02:41:55Z")
The Tleilaxu. In Chapterhouse Dune, the T’s have gone from a mighty empire with bizarre and powerful technology, to a single master. The Bene Geseret have learned the T’s secrets. Among these is the fact that the T’s practice a variant of Islaam. Their sacred book is called the Islamiyat. ``` TCStorm-The destruction of Rakis did NOT kill all Shai Halud. The BG's were able to save a single worm. This worm produced a plethora of sand trout. The BG's not only controlled the spice, they were the only ones who knew which planet the worms had been moved to. ``` ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/22 "2001-12-02T02:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ssj\_man2k \* > **Muad’dib considered himself a god, while Christ did not.** I think you have this backwards. Maud’dib (and later, Leto II) recognized that godhood had been thrust upon them as part of the role they accepted because of their prescient visions. In Dune Messiah, Paul experiences an attack of conscience when he tells someone that his holy jihad has killed at least 60 billion people; the only mitigation he experiences is that the alternative future he saw was far, far worse. In Heretics of Dune, Leto II leaves a message in Islamiyat (which is the sacred language, not the sacred book) for the Bene Gesserit who would find it 5000 years later, in which he refers to himself as a god using a term that means “god because you made me so”. ---
**Author:** ![Muslim\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Muslim\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muslim_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/23 "2001-12-02T04:55:31Z")
I only read the first _Dune_ novel, when I was in college, several years before I got interested in Islam. It was my first exposure to the Arabic language, and gave me a head start when I first began to learn Arabic. Then I went back to _Dune_ and figured out Herbert’s little linguistic games with Arabic. These are just the ones I remember off the top of my head without looking them up: Muad’Dib—the Mouse in the Moon? 😕 Huh? 😕 I never did get what that had to do with anything. But _mu’addib_ (the correct spelling) is a real Arabic word, and it means ‘one who inculcates good manners and cultural refinement (_adab_)’. Which sort of describes Paul’s role. _La, la, la_—No, no, no! I had studied a little Hebrew before reading _Dune_ and could instantly see the relation of Hebrew to Arabic. _Lo_ I knew was Hebrew for ‘no’. _Shalom/salâm_: so Hebrew _o_ corresponds to Arabic _â_. Lisan al-ghayb—literally ‘tongue of the Unseen’; Herbert was accurate in glossing this. Actually, _Lisân al-ghayb_ is the epithet for the great Persian poet Hâfiz. Gom jabbar—The phrase _qawm jabbâr_ (the correct spelling) literally means ‘a powerful, oppressive nation’. It actually occurs as such in the Qur’ân, in verse 5:22, referring to the peoples occupying the Promised Land when Moses brought the Israelites there. Herbert’s translation as ‘high-handed enemy’ is obscure. Applying it to a poisoned needle is even more obscure. Alia—feminine form of the name ‘Ali meaning ‘high’. A genuine Arabic girl’s name. Also familiar as the name of late pop star Aaliyah, using a different spelling, but the same name. Feyd Rautha—Arabic for ‘overflowing abundance of horse-poop’. 🙂 Shai Halud—if the second word could be read as _hulûd_ (i.e. _khulûd_), this might mean ‘Thing of immortality’. Bene Gesserit—Hebrew for ‘Children of the Bridge’(?). This may not be very exact Hebrew, but _gesher_ means ‘bridge’, related to Arabic _jisr_. I certainly didn’t get any negative impressions of Islam from reading _Dune_. On the contrary, the Fremen are good guys, freedom fighters; it was one of the first positive impressions of Arabs I ever got from literature. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/24 "2001-12-03T16:40:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muslim Guy \* > \*\*Muad’Dib—the Mouse in the Moon? 😕 Huh? 😕 I never did get what that had to do with anything. But _mu’addib_ (the correct spelling) is a real Arabic word, and it means ‘one who inculcates good manners and cultural refinement (_adab_)’. Which sort of describes Paul’s role. > \*\* I can see this applying to the mouse as well. It has evolved to walk without rythm. Thus, it can be used as an aid in teaching Fremen children. Further, other than the worms, the mouse is IIRC the only animal life adapted to the desert of Arakis. If you want to survive, study the mouse. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/25 "2001-12-03T17:28:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Bene Gesserit—Hebrew for ‘Children of the Bridge’(?). This may not be very exact Hebrew, but gesher means ‘bridge’, related to Arabic jisr. Actually, I believe this is just bastardized from Euro. languages–Bene=good, Gesserit=alteration of “Jesuit”, who were a jumping-off point for F. Herbert when he created his fictional sisterhood. (That all came from a Brian Herbert interview I read, IIRC.) Overall, I think the parallels are indeed striking, and perhaps a bit prophetic on FH’s part. Of course, remember that he wasn’t writing an allegory. He just took bits of his own world and times and tried to imagine what might survive and what might be totally jumbled up in tens of thousands of years. Thus, both the Fremen and the Tleilaxu have Islamic roots, though they diverged long ago in their past. Everything is further muddled by the fact that the Bene Gesserit have been sending out missionaries for millennia to seed planets with (what the BGs believe to be) “fake” religions that will condition natives to protect BG sisters should they find themselves in trouble. So Paul, to save his life, cultivates their belief that he is the Fremen messiah, even while he realizes that his doing so may start a jihad that could kill billions across the galaxy. But as others mentioned, he chose that as a lesser evil–and, meanwhile, Paul didn’t have the guts to go all the way and become an ACTUAL god, like his son Leto II. The issues: FH was using the spice as an allegory to current crucial, limited commodities, including both oil and water, as well as playing on the absolute importance of water in the daily life of the Fremen. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/26 "2001-12-03T21:07:13Z")
“Bene Gesserit” may be influenced by “Jesuit”, but it’s perfectly good Latin, meaning something like (pardon my rusty Latin) “They will have done well”. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/27 "2001-12-04T16:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*“Bene Gesserit” may be influenced by “Jesuit”, but it’s perfectly good Latin, meaning something like (pardon my rusty Latin) “They will have done well”. \*\* Thanks, Cal! ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713/28 "2001-12-05T02:15:37Z")
Although not directly related to Islam, I have always been struck by the similarity of “Dune” to [“The Alexiad”](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/comnena-cde.html). Throughout the book (Dune), excerpts are used suggesting a chronicle written by princess Irulan. It reminds me of the “Alexiad” which is described in this way at the linked site, “Among the sources for the First Crusade there is a history of the eastern emperor, Alexius, written by his daughter, Anna Comnena.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dune-vs-islam/95713.md?page=1)