# DUP now biggest Unionist Party, what fun. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716 "2003-11-28T13:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/21 "2003-11-28T19:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curly chick \* > \*\*The point I was trying to make is that I disagreed with her condemnation of Paisley, based on her perceptions of his religious beliefs. > Using religion as a big stick to beat Paisely with is a nonsense because religion is not the issue in Northern Ireland. > > Unionist vs Republican - That’s the issue > > Christian religion A vs Christian religion A (minor variant strain) - ancient and hackneyed smokescreen which no one with an ounce of sense should believe in at all, by this stage. \*\* Well, nobody apart from you was suggesting that that is the issue. **irishgirl** was condemning his _extremism_ (which of course is in part religiously motivated), but in no way was she suggesting a similarly extreme Catholic would be preferable. And there weren’t, as far as I’m aware, any similarly extreme Catholics running in this election anyway. I also think that your statement > [@](#): > > if you want to come on here to inspire foreigners to fill the Noraid coffers, that’s your choice, but don’t expect us all to sit back and applaud with its implication that criticism of the leading political party should be kept in check so as not to inspire terrorism is a bit, well, Ashcroftesque. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/22 "2003-11-28T21:12:32Z")
The final results are in. DUP- 30 seats UUP- 27 seats SF- 24 seats SDLP- 18 seats AP- 6 seats Others- 3 seats ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/23 "2003-11-29T11:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\ ***elfje** , You could write a book trying to answer those questions, and time is very short for me today. 😃 > One big issue is the idea that Trimble has already gone too far, offering concessions beyond what the DUP find acceptable - so rather than just halt the concessions they wish to reverse some of them (not going to happen). > \*\*see, but that’s what I don’t understand, what right does any unionist have to use _rights_ that should be a given as the proverbial carrot? All the nationalists want is equal rights for everyone. That is not something you _concede_, that is a basic human right, and should not be used as a weapon for negotiating. > "Concession: > \*Something, such as a point previously claimed in argument, that \*is later conceded. > \*An acknowledgment or admission. > \*_the act of conceding._ > Conceding means: > \*_To acknowledge, often reluctantly, as being true, just, or proper; admit."_ > > \*\*Policing is a big issue - the 50% Catholic, 50% other rule is considered discriminatory (it technically is a positive-discrimination policy to try and bring about a more fair police service). > **yes, a very big issue, I know. When you’ve had a blatantly discriminating police force like the RUC (strange how we don’t hear anything anymore about the Stevens inquiry, no?), who sit back and let thugs of one community terrorise the other, well then policing would become a bit of an issue, wouldn’t it? The ranks of the IRA may have swollen straight after Bloody Sunday, and most probably the reason for most lads to join then was revenge, but I can’t dismiss the fact that an armed force of some sort was at one point necessary to defend the nationalist community from sectarian attacks, and indeed, to defend _against_ the police. And, I hate to say this (i can’t condone violence of any kind, especially against innocents), but it was the IRA that brought the British government to the negotiating table. People don’t bomb whole wharves for no good reason.** > > Another is the idea of a convicted murder (Gerry Kelly) being elected Minister for Policing and Justice in the Assembly. > **I don’t know anything about Gerry Kelly, so can’t offer a defense here** > > Another is the cross-border bodies which are not answerable to the Assembly in NI. > **idem** > > FTR, I don’t agree with their policy ideas, I am only voicing them here for information. > > I simple answer to this is that the DUP view them all (Sinn Fein) as still either murderers or in collusion with ‘murderers’ ie. the IRA, so have no wish to accommodate them until they are convinced the weapons are gone forever. The irony being, of course, that in order to ignore Sinn Fein they must ignore one of the most basic principles of representative democracy – that of accepting the will of the people to elect those whom they wish to represent them. > **But what about the last act of decommissioning? The amount was larger than the two previous caches together, but most importantly, they issued a statement saying that they _were opposed to any violence for political means_. Opposed. Against. Meaning they won’t do it again, scouts honour, cross their hearts and hope to die. The IRA does not issue statements like that on a whim. And my first point about the actual weapons still stands. Should they so wish, they could re-arm faster than they decommissioned. So all the palavaring and going on about transparancy and completion is all (pardon my French) chickenshit. It’s just a stick to beat the IRA with, whom have said in enough words that their warmongering years are over. So I really think that that arguments (they’re all murderers, or associate with murderers) does not hold. I mean, the RUC contained murderers, or at least people that looked the other way when other people were being murdered. And what about the unionist paramilitary groups? The UDA? The UVF? Nobody’s ever asked them to disarm, have they? keeping in mind that the UDA was formed in what, 1913 (please correct me if I’m wrong)? took up arms against England, as Home Rule had been promised after the War (in which 50.000 Irish died for England, but nevertheless the Home Rule promise was soon forgotten afterwards, wasn’t it?), and the unionists didn’t like that, even then? > So where’s the equality in that? Both paramilitary groups (UVF and UDA) have also been accused of drug dealing, which to me, is more detrimental to a community then sitting on a stash of weapons that are not being used. > If you were embroiled in a fight with 2 or sometimes even 3 armed groups, would you give up all your weapons if the people you’re fighting against do not have to do the same thing?** > > I’d like to offer a positive view on this - I think, practically, on the ground there are much less people who give a shit about the politics / religion / culture of a person, but judge people as people. I think we all get along much better and there is less and less divide among communities, with the exception of a few key areas. I think the low turn out in the election (due to bad weather, lack of ID cards and apathy as the elections won’t lead to the formation of an assembly immediately) has greatly helped the more extreme parties gain a greater percentage. But I don’t see it as reflective of the _mood_ in NI in general. No need for the dark clouds of doom quite yet - we’ve been through all this shit before. \*\* It’s a setback for the nationalist community, direct rule from Westminster has always been something they wanted to see gone forever, and now, because of the stubbornness of one party, that’ll probably last for another few years. You have to admit that if unionists vote for an the most anti-agreement of anti-agreement parties, and nationalists for the strongest pro-agreement party, both communities are at opposite ends. They want something completely different. One wants black, the other wants white. And one is shouting “there will be no grey, none whatsoever, grey is out of the question, to consider grey would be to give in to white. Only black is the way to go.” then what? Is it really only politics and the political parties that are behaving that way? If people were getting less fanatic about things, they’d have voted for parties like the AP or the WC, parties that try and reach accross the divide. Instead they went and voted for the extremist parties. ---
**Author:** ![Fox\_in\_the\_Snow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@Fox\_in\_the\_Snow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fox_in_the_Snow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/24 "2003-11-29T13:44:18Z")
There are two things that puzzle me about the DUP’s current stance. Ol’ Ian Paisley and his children have been ranting away that they will never work with SF because SF is full of murderers and is a front for Terrorists. Now forgive me if I’m wrong but hasn’t the DUP already worked with SF in certain councils in Northern Ireland. In addition Aren’t there quite a few memebers of the DUP who have some skeletons in their closets with regards to the whole terrorism thang? This being the case, surely their whole position is undermined? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/25 "2003-11-29T14:34:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > **keeping in mind that the UDA was formed in what, 1913 (please correct me if I’m wrong)?** It was the UVF, not the UDA. But it’s not the same UVF. When the modern-day UVF formed in 1966 (for the purpose of trying to destabilise the Stormont government which it saw as too reformist), it took its name from the earlier group. But there’s no continuity from one to the other. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/26 "2003-11-29T14:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fox in the Snow \* > \*\*Now forgive me if I’m wrong but hasn’t the DUP already worked with SF in certain councils in Northern Ireland. In addition Aren’t there quite a few memebers of the DUP who have some skeletons in their closets with regards to the whole terrorism thang? > > This being the case, surely their whole position is undermined? \*\* Right on all counts, but it doesn’t really matter. The DUP are the only party saying what loyalists want to hear, so it’s easy for them to block out the parts they _don’t_ want to hear. This happens on both sides in the six counties and it’s a pointless exercise trying to draw attention to it. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/27 "2003-11-29T14:48:11Z")
Well, irishgirl, I can certainly sympathize and we have a similar problem in the U.S. (asshole in charge) ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/28 "2003-11-29T16:45:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by irishgirl \* > \*\*Oh fuck. > Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. > Thanks to the people of Northern Ireland, Ian Paisley is now leader of the largest Unionist Party. ☹ > \*\* I’m in Belfast and I was the only person that I know that voted. people just seemed apathetic this time round - candidates included - in the previous election the candidates at least bothered to introduce themselves by calling at the house so that you had some idea of their character and policies. I went to the polling station at 7.30pm - normally one of the busiest times and I was the only person there to vote. I sat through the 2 days of counting in horror as the seats were filled - fortunately the DUP didn’t get a majority of the seats in my area. At the polling station I was stopped by 2 DUP bully boys who handed me a list of their candidates in the order they wanted them voted for - I said thanks but no thanks!! Paisley said a number of times during the counting that any member of ‘his’ party that even spoke to Sinn Fein would get kicked out. So much for power-sharing!!! So I agree with ‘irishgirl’ - FUCK, FUCK, FUCK!!! ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/29 "2003-11-29T17:00:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*Right on all counts, but it doesn’t really matter. The DUP are the only party saying what loyalists want to hear, so it’s easy for them to block out the parts they _don’t_ want to hear. This happens on both sides in the six counties and it’s a pointless exercise trying to draw attention to it. \*\* But what the DUP is saying is that it doesnt want a united Ireland. Well, that’s what I. P. Senior is saying, anyway. Which means, if that’s what the unionist want to hear, that a majority of the uniost population doesn’t want a united Ireland. Didn’t the Republic of Ireland change the constitution, removing or altering Act 2 & 3 (which stated that NI was Irish territory, I believe), on the basis of the GFA? And doesn’t the GFA state that, in time, and given a vast majority of the population vote “yes”, there will be a United Ireland? I don’t think the Irish Government will be willing to renegotiate that particular part, at least I hope they won’t. So how will the DUP be going about getting what they want? which really is to indefinitely remain with Britain? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/30 "2003-11-29T17:15:25Z")
The majority of people in Northern Ireland don’t want a united Ireland. Not all of them are protestant either. I’m not!! Paisley by no means represents all those who think that it’s up to the people of NORTHERN Ireland - not Ireland as a whole - to decide on any change of status for our country. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/31 "2003-11-29T17:45:24Z")
Paisley sounds extreme to this American. No drinking or dancing, really, or is the OP exaggerating? Over here, Presbyterians are considered just average middle-of-the road mainstream Protestants. They no longer rail against saloons and dance halls, though they did originally come from Puritan roots. And in the old days they did use to be stricter in their outlook; for instance, they tended to be in favor of alcohol prohibition in the 1920’s. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/32 "2003-11-29T17:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > **But what the DUP is saying is that it doesnt want a united Ireland. Well, that’s what I. P. Senior is saying, anyway. > Which means, if that’s what the unionist want to hear, that a majority of the uniost population doesn’t want a united Ireland.** Not just a majority. _100%_ of the unionist population doesn’t want a united Ireland. That’s why they’re called unionists - because they want to preserve the union (with Britain). > [@](#): > > Didn’t the Republic of Ireland change the constitution, removing or altering Act 2 & 3 (which stated that NI was Irish territory, I believe), on the basis of the GFA? Articles 2 & 3 were reworded so as to remove the territorial claim over the six counties. Additionally, voters in the 26 counties agreed to allow the State to be bound by the terms of the GFA. > [@](#): > > And doesn’t the GFA state that, in time, and given a vast majority of the population vote “yes”, there will be a United Ireland? What it says is that if the majority of northerners want a united Ireland they will have a united Ireland. If a majority don’t, the union will remain. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the Irish Government will be willing to renegotiate that particular part, at least I hope they won’t. To be honest, I wouldn’t put anything past this Government. Last year when the census figures from the north were due to be released, there was a lot of speculation that they might show a near 50-50 split between Protestant and Catholic. Unionists went into panic mode and several of them started talking about this fiction they called “dual consent”, in which a majority not only of northerners in general but _majorities from both the Catholic and the Protestant populations_ would have to approve reunification before it could take place. Now, this is absolutely, 100% outside the terms of the GFA, but at the time I was seriously concerned that the Irish Government might fall for it - they don’t have the stomach to stand up to unionists, as we saw in last month’s debacle. As it happened the census results didn’t turn out that close anyway… but it remains a potential issue for the future. > [@](#): > > So how will the DUP be going about getting what they want? which really is to indefinitely remain with Britain? As long as there are fewer nationalists than unionists in NI they don’t have to do anything. IMHO what the DUP really wants to do is turn back the clock to the time when conditions were so bad for Catholics that a lot of them just emigrated. Ethnic cleansing, Norn Iron style. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/33 "2003-11-29T18:01:29Z")
But Paisleys church is "FREE Presbyterian " - a church he invented all by himself to further his own extremist views. It has no connection to the Presbyterian Church of Ireland. It’s laughable really - him and his doctorate from the Bob Jones University in the USA … I remember in the 60’s him holding meetings in front of the City Hall in Belfast - passing round plastic buckets for the ‘silent collection’ - banknotes only… shhhh!!! He’s come a long way since then - he has churches in other countries too … People looked on him as a right eejit … out harassing us civil rights marchers and all - but I guess the last laugh is on us - he’s the one with 3 parliamentary salaries on top of what his churches bring in ;-( ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/34 "2003-11-29T18:20:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*As long as there are fewer nationalists than unionists in NI they don’t have to do anything. IMHO what the DUP really wants to do is turn back the clock to the time when conditions were so bad for Catholics that a lot of them just emigrated. Ethnic cleansing, Norn Iron style. \*\* I strongly object to that ‘ethnic cleansing’ remark - there are pig-headed, violent groups on BOTH sides - the majority of the people in NI just want peace. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/35 "2003-11-29T18:36:15Z")
For more ‘information’ on Norn Iron elections and a bit of a laugh, try [http://www.portadownnews.com/](http://www.portadownnews.com/) … especially the letters page 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/36 "2003-11-29T18:48:05Z")
Well, I’m sorry you don’t like the terminology, but it’s perfectly accurate to describe the policies of the old Stormont regime. They _were_ designed to drive out Catholics - the Unionists of the time had no qualms about admitting it. And this is the era that the DUP - its leadership, anyway, if not all of its voters - would like the North to return to. It was when Unionist policies started to change that the DUP was formed, remember? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/37 "2003-11-29T19:07:41Z")
**curly chick** there is no question that Paisleys religious views are more extreme that those of the Catholic Church and I don’t remember see a priest in the Dail of late although I would agree there are too many god botherers in there for my liking. Now while all the DUP don’t share his very extreme form of belief they are still in a party led by the fucker. I have no love for the RCC and the damage that it has done to my fellow citizens over history. Paisley is a bigoted hate filled extremist SOB and so is his mini-me son. They are now the major powerbrokers in NI along with their best pals Adams and McGuinness. I can see why **irishgirl** is pissed off about this. You were right about one thing though. This is the PIT and she is using it for it’s correct purpose. She is ranting. So no first minister no deputy = elections in 6 months if they want an assembly. No direct rule for NI for the foreseeable future. For a fine recipe for more extremists to be made. Just what NI needs. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/38 "2003-11-29T19:10:45Z")
As I’ve said - there are bully boys on both sides. The DUP was formed because, as with the church, no other political party was right wing enough for Paisley. Have you ever even lived here in Norn Iron? What qualifies you as an expert on the country I’ve lived in all my life? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/39 "2003-11-29T19:12:27Z")
BTW **ruadh** I’m heading off in an hour or so to meet up with **curly chick, Aro and jjimm** and a few other non dopers in the Noresman (now called Farringtons) for a few pints if you’re interested. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/40 "2003-11-29T19:22:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*BTW **ruadh** I’m heading off in an hour or so to meet up with **curly chick, Aro and jjimm** and a few other non dopers in the Noresman (now called Farringtons) for a few pints if you’re interested. \*\* Well, hope you enjoy a nice rant together - and don’t get too pissed to find your way home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716.md?page=3)