# DUP now biggest Unionist Party, what fun. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716 "2003-11-28T13:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/61 "2003-11-30T18:32:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ZombiesAteMyBrain \* > **And it is not an attack to state the ‘fact’ that people living in this country know more about what goes on here!!** The way you phrased it, it most certainly was an attack. See #5 on [this page](http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_circumstantial.htm). But don’t worry, my feelings weren’t hurt by it. I’ve had worse things thrown at me by northerners. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/62 "2003-11-30T18:34:43Z")
it’s not what you say, it’s the way you do it. sarcasm seems to drip off the screen with every single post you post. Don’t be offended when people react to it. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/63 "2003-11-30T18:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > \*\*it’s not what you say, it’s the way you do it. > sarcasm seems to drip off the screen with every single post you post. > Don’t be offended when people react to it. \*\* Sarcasm - where??? I certainly didn’t mean any - so obviously it is very much in the eyes of the beholders!! I still fail to see this attack you mention - maybe you are both just too sensitive??? You seem determined to see insults where none were intended - since I first used ‘straightdope’ I have seen some real personal attacks on other groups - I just don’t see how my posts qualify - all I did was to post the facts as I see them from here. ---
**Author:** ![professorbiscuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@professorbiscuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/professorbiscuit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/64 "2003-11-30T20:16:03Z")
I think people being too pessimistic about the results. For one thing, in terms of 1st preference votes the UUP have made gains. However, the anti-agreement unionists have discovered the joys of tactical voting, hence the collapse of the Bob McCartney party and the various other ones. That said, the UUP and the SDLP have only themselves to blame for their lack of electoral fortunes. If Trimble hadn’t have bungled the attempts to get the assembly up and running last month, he would have built up a lot of momentum going into these elections. As it was, unionists are confused, frustrated and apathetic about the whole process. While the UUP have been warring amongst themselves and sending out mixed messages, the DUP have been unified and coherent, and generally look the most professional people to get the job done of defending unionist interests. I think unionists are giving the DUP a turn in charge on the grounds that they couldn’t really do any worse than Trimble’s crowd. The SDLP, on the other hand, have fallen apart because they have had no strong leadership or anything to say since the agreement was signed. The old leadership hung around for way too long, and now they’re only being kept up by nationalists who can’t face voting Sinn Fein of the crimes of the IRA. When the guns go, the SDLP will go too. The slick PR machine of Sinn Fein has stolen their constitutional nationalism thunder, and they don’t have the policies or leadership to survive. The results may look bad, but it is because the extreme parties have galloped towards the centre faster than the electorate in general has. Paisley is indeed a reactionary old fool, but he is somewhat of a Zaphod Beeblebrox in the sense that he appears in charge, but is not really in charge at all. He is a symbol of unionism’s past. For all their huffing and puffing, the DUP have been making (for them) encouraging noises about devolution and their willingness to talk to Sinn Fein after disarmament. Given the fact that Sinn Fein must realise that disbanding the IRA will pretty much hand them the role of first minister and enable them to set up government with all the unionist parties, couldn’t the silver lining of what looks like a bad situation actually be a sign that the gun might be about to leave Irish politics for good? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/65 "2003-11-30T20:27:52Z")
Disbanding the IRA isn’t up to Sinn Féin. ---
**Author:** ![professorbiscuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@professorbiscuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/professorbiscuit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/66 "2003-11-30T21:00:55Z")
To put it mildly, I would suggest that Sinn Fein may have a bit of influence over the IRA. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/67 "2003-11-30T21:10:48Z")
To put it mildly, I would suggest that you’re overestimating that influence. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/68 "2003-11-30T22:38:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*To put it mildly, I would suggest that you’re overestimating that influence. \*\* I have, of course, no knowledge of the veracity of your statement, though I acknowledge that you know more than I about this. What I would say, however, is that in my opinion it is tremendously important for SF to be more effective PR-wise to disabuse the population of all Ireland that this is indeed the case. All the cloak-and-dagger meetings _seem_ to back up the very simple, yet effective, repetition of the “Sinn Féin/IRA” moniker that every single Unionist politician uses ad nauseum at every possible opportunity. BTW, “much more than they’re letting on” is the impression that _I_ get, wrong though it may be. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/69 "2003-11-30T22:48:42Z")
In the Sindo today there’s an article describing the IRA as “Sinn Féin’s masters”. I find it mildly amusing that so many people think that one of the organisations controls the other, and yet nobody can agree which one it is. Anyway, there’s a very good reason why the IRA’s meetings have to be cloak and dagger: the Offences Against The State Act. The IRA is a proscribed organisation, and membership in it is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/70 "2003-11-30T23:15:36Z")
In terms of influence, Sinn Fein is to IRA as Arafat is to Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/71 "2003-11-30T23:24:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*In terms of influence, Sinn Fein is to IRA as Arafat is to Hamas. \*\* I presume this is just an opinion? And of course one can interpret that statement as one wishes… I had always thought that Arafat had little-to-no influence on Hamas. On the SDMB I find people who claim he runs the entire show, including buying the explosives. There’s a distinct parallel of interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/72 "2003-12-01T00:06:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*In terms of influence, Sinn Fein is to IRA as Arafat is to Hamas. \*\* Sir, I respectfully suggest that you don’t know what you are saying here. As far as wether or not to go back to war, the IRA call the shots. It will have nothing to do with what Sinn Fein achieve or do not achieve that will result in the suspension of the ceasefire. As far as I can tell, the war is over. There are far more knowledgable sources available than I, though. the opinion is far more “by ballot, not gun, our day will come” than ever before. the commentary saying that the vote has gone more extremist is misleading in a way. More nationalists feel comfortable voting sinn Fein now since the ceasefire, and they are viewed much more as a valid ballot. the DUP have made gains simply because they are not a party split down the middle, and their voters have remained constant. ---
**Author:** ![pluralgravity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pluralgravity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluralgravity)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/73 "2003-12-01T01:23:57Z")
How can any americans support the IRA and their sock puppets sinn fein. During the recent conflict in Iraq these cunts were against USAF aircraft refueling at Shannon, in the name of ‘Irish neutrality’. Even if these aircraft were evacuating US wounded. Just like the second world war when thousands of US seamen drowned because the Irish were neutral, i. e. any enemy of the Brits was their friend. Maybe your grandad’s bones are at the bottom of the eastern Atlantic because the Irish would’nt join the war against the U-boats. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/74 "2003-12-01T07:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **I presume this is just an opinion?** Well, I don’t actually have any idea what relationship Arafat has to Hamas. But I seem to recall **capacitor** once stating that Ian Paisley had a similar relationship to the LVF, so consider the source. **pluralgravity** , if you want to discuss Irish neutrality during WW2 there’s a perfectly good thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=224936). If you want to slam Sinn Féin for opposing the use of Shannon Airport by US troops, I’m afraid you’ll have to broaden your target, as SF were just reflecting [majority Irish opinion](http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0214/iraq02.html) on the subject. BTW, not all Americans supported the war, either. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/75 "2003-12-01T09:11:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pluralgravity \* > **During the recent conflict in Iraq these cunts were against USAF aircraft refueling at Shannon, in the name of ‘Irish neutrality’.** I don’t support Sinn Féin, but I too was opposed to the refueling. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/76 "2003-12-01T12:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*All the cloak-and-dagger meetings _seem_ to back up the very simple, yet effective, repetition of the “Sinn Féin/IRA” moniker that every single Unionist politician uses ad nauseum at every possible opportunity. \*\* Politicians, when asked about the loyalist proscribed paramilitary groups which should also be disarmed, usually have little or nothing to say. I wish there was more emphasis on total disarmament of all paramilitaries in this country. Just before July 12th this year, a huge mural was bolted to a wall a few streets from where I live, showing a loyalist paramilitary gunman. It is still there - I see it every time I go to the park - a permanent reminder that loyalist gunmen are alive and well in Belfast. We won’t succeed in taking ‘the gun out of Northern Ireland politics’, IMO, until this is also faced up to and dealt with. Just my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/77 "2003-12-01T12:22:51Z")
Zombie I don’t disagree with you on that, of course, but I’m far more concerned with the fact that loyalist weapons are still _in use_. On a regular basis. It boggles my mind that IRA weapons receive such a disproportionate amount of attention even from politicians who admit that they are not likely to ever be used again. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/78 "2003-12-01T12:38:44Z")
Ask around, **Ruadh**. You will find the answer to that riddle - Your party leader Gerry Adams has _specifically requested_ in discussions / meetings that the ideas of loyalist guns are not discussed as part of negotiations. He doesn’t want loyalist decommissioning included at the table as it will counteract the ability to gain concessions for the decommissioning of Republican weapons. So it is Republican policy to not allow discussion on the issue of Loyalist decommissioning, not a Unionist one. And it makes good sense in giving themselves an even more powerful negotiating base, IMHO. Plus they get to hold on to a (dubious) ‘higher moral ground’ stance on the issue too. Sorry about disappearing out of the thread on Friday - had places to be. You all had fun without me anyway, I see. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/79 "2003-12-01T12:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*Zombie I don’t disagree with you on that, of course, but I’m far more concerned with the fact that loyalist weapons are still _in use_. On a regular basis. \*\* Some weapons are still in use on both sides on a regular basis. Hardly a week goes by without some violence by some faction on either side. \*\*It boggles my mind that IRA weapons receive such a disproportionate amount of attention even from politicians who admit that they are not likely to ever be used again. \*\* [/QUOTE] There is still the ‘Real IRA’ of course - a breakaway group who still like violence. I think though that politicians are afraid to speak out about loyalist paramilitaries too much in case it costs them some votes. I keep wondering why there are so few calls for them to also participate in ‘decomissioning’. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716/80 "2003-12-01T13:01:14Z")
**Aro** , given the fact that we are not negotiating with any political groups linked to loyalist paramilitaries there would hardly be any point to including loyalist decommissioning in our negotiations, now, would there? I’m not talking about negotiations anyway, but about the lack of concern generally shown by politicians (Unionist, Brit and Free State) about the ongoing loyalist violence. And **Zombie** , when I say IRA I mean IRA, not Real IRA, Continuity IRA or any other group of malcontents who might fancy themselves warriors for the cause. I agree that _their_ use of weapons is cause for concern - but the IRA’s atrophying arsenal _still_ gets far more attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dup-now-biggest-unionist-party-what-fun/215716.md?page=5)