# During WW2, was it an unwritten rule among pilots that you don't shoot at a bailed pilot **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 19, 2017, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847 "2017-12-19T07:35:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/21 "2017-12-19T14:55:46Z")
> [@dirty\_hippie](#): > > There seemed to be a code of conduct that was shared among pilots … Mention of a code of conduct between pilots reminds me of the great story of the [Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident). Great story. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/22 "2017-12-19T15:01:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isn’t it also normal to shoot a tank crew that’s bailing though? everything I’ve ever read or seen on tank warfare says that it’s normal practice to kill the bailing crewmembers on the logic that they can just get another tank. I would think the same applies to pilots, at least if they bail on their own territory. What do you call dismounted armor crew? Infantry. The (IMHO fatuous) “chivalry” of air officers never seemed to apply to armor. While a tanker would be the last to admit they’re not meaningfully\* different than a dogface if they don’t have their vehicle, it’s still true. \*Granted, they’re not equipped the same – smaller personal weapons, different helmet and body armor, etc. But if you shoot at them they’ll take cover and shoot back with whatever they have, so infantry. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/23 "2017-12-19T15:20:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isn’t it also normal to shoot a tank crew that’s bailing though? everything I’ve ever read or seen on tank warfare says that it’s normal practice to kill the bailing crewmembers on the logic that they can just get another tank. I would think the same applies to pilots, at least if they bail on their own territory. It depends on the circumstances to some degree, of course, but it is perfectly clear that a pilot bailing out of an aircraft because it was destroyed is helpless and out of the fight. Since WWII, a protocol to the Geneva Conventions specifically protects pilots ejecting from an aircraft. There is no such protection for tankers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/24 "2017-12-19T15:25:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, and WWII, like other modern wars, started out being fairly gentlemenly but quickly degenerated into all out slaughter. The laws of war were perhaps respected on the Western front from 1939 to 1941. Otherwise, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/25 "2017-12-19T15:31:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isn’t it also normal to shoot a tank crew that’s bailing though? everything I’ve ever read or seen on tank warfare says that it’s normal practice to kill the bailing crewmembers on the logic that they can just get another tank. I would think the same applies to pilots, at least if they bail on their own territory. That also varied. There was some idea of not firing on crews abandoning tanks in the ‘war without hate’ between British and Germans in North Africa. As noted that isn’t so different from tanks coming upon infantry in the desert, but in North Africa infantry would generally surrender if caught in the open by tanks or tanks broke into their wired/mined positions, if without their own anti-tank gun support, since infantry then generally lacked effective man portable AT weapons which appeared later in the war. And the general ethos was not fight to the death on either side. But in most of WWII most places sure crews abandoning tanks were fired on, and it surely happened in North Africa. Besides which on a confused land battlefield it wouldn’t always be clear anyway what caused casualties of dismounted tank crews. Back to fighter combat, there was a debate when exactly the enemy air man was no longer fair game. It’s relatively unusual to see USAAF fighter accounts admitting gunning German pilots in their parachutes, more cases where it’s stated that units felt it legitimate to keep firing as the pilot bailed out before he was clear of his plane. The reason was what’s been stated, USAAF fighters were generally combating the Germans over Germany or Occupied Europe, a surviving German pilot could be back in action immediately with a new plane and the Allies had at least a general idea how much more plentiful new planes were for the Germans than well trained pilots esp by ca. 1944, though we understand that more exactly in hindsight. A downed US pilot was lost for the duration, except in rare cases he managed to escape from the occupied countries and very rare ones from Germany. Again there though, accounts from the side of pilots shot down are clouded by uncertainty of how pilots were really killed. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/26 "2017-12-19T16:35:15Z")
It’s not just parachutes that this question comes up in. In the WWII novel Run Silent, Run Deep, the captain of a US sub deliberately rams lifeboats of a ship commanded by a crafty and competent anti-submarine captain, in order to prevent him from getting another ship. This is portrayed as a questionable decision in the novel. In real life, the captain of the USS Wahoo\* was involved in an incident of machine gunning lifeboats, though the incident is shrouded in controversy. \*What a name for a ship, Yes, a “wahoo” is a type of fish, but so is sardine, minnow, and shrimp, but they never names subs after those fish. Wa-hoo! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/27 "2017-12-19T16:46:12Z")
> [@dirty\_hippie](#): > > Was this an unspoken gentleman’s agreement or was this something that was part of the Geneva Convention? The Geneva Convention didn’t take place until after WW2. To my knowledge, it prohibits the targeting of parachutists from an aircraft in distress, as distinct from paratroopers. Paratroops are fair targets whether they are deploying or bailing. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/28 "2017-12-19T17:08:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isn’t it also normal to shoot a tank crew that’s bailing though? It would seem to me that a tank crew has the option of surrendering to the enemy, while a parachuting pilot would have a hard time signaling an intent to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/29 "2017-12-19T17:26:19Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The Geneva Convention didn’t take place until after WW2. To my knowledge, it prohibits the targeting of parachutists from an aircraft in distress, as distinct from paratroopers. Paratroops are fair targets whether they are deploying or bailing. That is not entirely correct. [The Third Geneva Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention), relating to treatment of prisoners, was adopted in 1929, and was effective for WWII prisoners. See: Heroes, Hogan. 🙂 It does not specifically mention bail-out parachuting, though. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/30 "2017-12-19T17:31:19Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > In real life, the captain of the USS Wahoo\* was involved in an incident of machine gunning lifeboats, though the incident is shrouded in controversy. There is the story of a USAAF bomber sinking a German sub that was one the surface with rescued Allies on the deck. Mt Father described his unit shooting at a Japanese pilot parachuting. He had been strafing them, and they were pretty angry. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/31 "2017-12-19T18:22:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There is the story of a USAAF bomber sinking a German sub that was one the surface with rescued Allies on the deck. That would be U-156, while the air crew did get credit for sinking her, she wasn’t actually sunk, only forced to dive(the difference was of course academic to the people sitting on her deck). This was later known as the [Laconia Incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/32 "2017-12-19T18:30:58Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > That would be U-156, while the air crew did get credit for sinking her, she wasn’t actually sunk, only forced to dive(the difference was of course academic to the people sitting on her deck). > This was later known as the [Laconia Incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident). Thanks, Mogle! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/33 "2017-12-19T19:02:16Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > The Japanese were infamous for shooting down bailing out pilots, while American and British pilots would shoot down parachuting German pilots if they felt they had been attacking extremely “ungentlemanly” such as they had been previously strafing Allied bombers even when the aircraft was falling out of formation and was doomed anyway. I don’t mean to sound as if I’m picking on you; its human nature to want to see one’s own side in the best possible light, but the Pacific Theatre was infamous for the killing of those rendered hors de combat, not just the Japanese side. Not just shooting at parachuting pilots, but strafing lifeboats and machine gunning floating survivors from sunken ships was common practice on both sides of the war. For examples, American naval pilots spent some time strafing the survivors after sinking the battleship _Yamato_, from Russell Spurr’s [_A Glorious Way to Die_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Glorious_Way_to_Die): > [@](#): > > After _Yamato_ went down, the Americans machine-gunned survivors in the water.[12][18] Spurr explains the reason for their hatred of the Japanese: > The Americans felt no compunction about slaughtering their helpless foes. They had always fought a blatantly racial war in the Pacific – and so had the Japanese. Headline-seeking brass hats openly declared that killing Japs was no worse than killing lice. Reports of Japan’s atrocities against war prisoners and even the unnatural fanaticism of the Kamikaze combined to convince the Americans that these were inhuman freaks, deserving little mercy. The apogee of brutalization was to be reached, four months later, at Hiroshima.[18] From earlier in the war, in the aftermath of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal on November 13, 1942, from Samuel Elliot Morrison’s History of US Naval Operations in World War II, volume 5: > [@](#): > > On board _Atlanta_ all efforts were concentrated on saving the ship. Captain Jenkins, wounded painfully in the foot, urged his bedraggled seamen to superhuman efforts… Even after 0939, when the tug _Bobolink_ had taken her in tow, _Atlanta_ shot at a Japanese “Betty” [bomber] which ventured too close; the seamen of _Bobolink_, rendered bloodthirsty by previous experiences, machine-gunned every dark head they saw afloat until Captain Jenkins begged them to desist lest mistakes be made. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/34 "2017-12-19T20:06:50Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > That is not entirely correct. > > [The Third Geneva Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention), relating to treatment of prisoners, was adopted in 1929, and was effective for WWII prisoners. See: Heroes, Hogan. 🙂 It does not specifically mention bail-out parachuting, though. I was gonna say that I remembered Alec Guinness’ character in _Bridge on the River Kwai_ citing the Geneva Convention regarding his men’s treatment as POWs. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/35 "2017-12-20T03:23:37Z")
I’d imagine (and this is partly backed up) by what little I’ve read that a tanker or pilot might naturally view an enemy bailed-out tanker or pilot as either a gentlemanly comrade, or at least someone who was clearly out of the fight and harmless. But an infantryman, after being shot at from the sky or from behind armor and unable to respond, might see a bailed-out tanker or pilot as a chance to get some revenge. ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/36 "2017-12-20T15:01:37Z")
This may or may not apply to WW II. I do volunteer work on the USS Midway museum with quite a few Vietnam era pilots. A recent event included both U. S. And North Vietnamese pilots. W/regard to them meeting above in the skies of NVN, both agreed they weren’t trying to kill their opposition. It wasn’t personal. All they were interested in doing was shooting down an enemy’s aircraft. Unfortunately for U. S. Pilots shot down, those on the ground felt differently of our pilots. Back to the aforementioned event, at one point one U. S. pilot realized the man sitting next to him was the Mig pilot who shot him down. What a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/37 "2017-12-20T17:59:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > the Pacific Theatre was infamous for the killing of those rendered hors de combat, not just the Japanese side. Not just shooting at parachuting pilots, but strafing lifeboats and machine gunning floating survivors from sunken ships was common practice on both sides of the war. I agree. When I was younger, the literature seemed filled with versions of the claim “the Japanese fought fanatically with no thought of surrender and had to be killed to the last man.” But having read more widely, I have seen numerous claims that this was a two-way street – the much better-equipped Americans showed little mercy in the heat of battle. Once you think your enemy won’t surrender (or will hide a grenade in his clothes before surrendering), it would be easy to adopt a “kill 'em all” policy. It seems likely that a lot of the later-war battles in which Japanese casualties were nearly total might be a combination of Japanese ethos (whether “fanaticism,” duty, self-sacrifice, or simple fatalism) and American unwillingness to take prisoners in the first place (whether from racism, fear of being harmed, revenge/hatred, or simple habit, made possible by a material abundance in the machinery of war). Surrender is always a difficult transaction on the battlefield, as the losing side is essentially asking the prevailing side to expose themselves to risk on their enemies’ behalf. It must be easier to roll a drum of gasoline into that tunnel, regardless of what the people inside are calling to you, than to go in there with a pistol in hand to investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/38 "2017-12-20T18:06:48Z")
Also remember that as the war went on, the physical circumstances of the increasingly-asymmetric war made many Japanese positions vulnerable to this sort of treatment. Once the Japanese lost control of the sea, many garrisons found themselves on an island cut off from resupply or retreat, without much in the way of technology beyond rifles, mortars and machine guns with a little bit of ammunition. When a huge invasion force arrived, bringing naval guns, rocket-firing barges, massive airpower, flamethrowers, tanks, and other accoutrements of war, it would begin pounding the Japanese positions relentlessly. There might have been little opportunity for the Japanese to offer to talk or make any communication at all. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/39 "2017-12-22T15:59:56Z")
Attacking a person parachuting from an aircraft in distress is, in fact, prohibited by international humanitarian law (the body of international law that governs what is and what is not allowed in armed conflict). A breach of this provision would be a war crime. The [website of the International Committee of the Red Cross](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule48) (which is the body tasked with monitoring the compliance with international humanitarian law; it is an NGO but a special one, being recognised as a non-state subject of international law) has a page on it. They refer to a 1977 protocol as well as a 1923 codification called the Hague Rules of Air Warfare, as well as the military manuals of many countries, and they seem to regard it also as part of customary international law (and thus also applicable in the absence of a treaty). the prohibition covers, however, only people parachuting in distress, not paratroopers descending in preparation for an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847/40 "2017-12-22T17:31:18Z")
During the Falklands War, there were exchanges of fire between low-flying ground-attack aircraft and small-arms equipped infantrymen. British soldiers reportedly shot at Argentine pilot who had ejected and was parachuting down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/during-ww2-was-it-an-unwritten-rule-among-pilots-that-you-dont-shoot-at-a-bailed-pilot/804847.md?page=3)