# Dutch finding Germans among them after WWII **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069 "2004-11-16T16:16:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/1 "2004-11-16T16:16:51Z")
Greetings to the teeming millions! I just recently returned from Eindhoven in the Netherlands from a training course for my employer. On the drive from Amsterdam, the driver of my Schphol taxi had a rather amusing story to tell. He told me that after WWII, the Netherlands wanted to round up ex-military Germans that tried to blend in with the population to avoid procesution for their war crimes. He told me that one method they had of spotting Germans among them, was that supposedly there is a word in their language that every self-respecting Dutchman can pronounce, but a German cannot. So as soon as they found someone who was struggling with the word or saying it with a typical German tinge, they knew they had their man. I cannot remember what the word is, it was fairly complex, at least 5-7 syllables. Maybe something along the lines of “Sasgledachijnego”, I can’t even begin to guess. OK, now is this even possible? Is there a word or phrase that Dutch can pronounce, but Germans, because of the differences in the languages cannot? Aod for the record, to his Delight, being Polish I was able to pronounce that word just fine on my first attempt 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/2 "2004-11-16T16:25:13Z")
So, he’s claiming there was a _shibboleth_ used? Wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/3 "2004-11-16T16:36:37Z")
The word my mother’s group used (during the war, AFAIK) is something I can’t replicate, but I recall that it has a “-sch-” combination, which the Dutch pronounce differently from everyone else), and it had that “-ui-” diphthong which the dutch pronounce differently from the Germans. Frankly, I’d be surprised if your cab driver wasn’t humoring you – I’m sure you can pronounce it, but pronounce it like a Nederlander? ---
**Author:** ![Roches](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc8723/32.png) [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/4 "2004-11-16T16:43:39Z")
[This page](http://www.andrewsenior.com/shibboleth/list.html) says the shibboleth was ‘Scheveningen’. Native Dutch speakers pronounce \ with separate s and ch sounds (IPA [sx]) while Germans pronounce it with a single sh-sound (the integral symbol in IPA, [S] in SAMPA). ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/5 "2004-11-16T16:44:05Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > The word my mother’s group used (during the war, AFAIK) is something I can’t replicate, but I recall that it has a “-sch-” combination, which the Dutch pronounce differently from everyone else), and it had that “-ui-” diphthong which the dutch pronounce differently from the Germans. Frankly, I’d be surprised if your cab driver wasn’t humoring you – I’m sure you can pronounce it, but pronounce it like a Nederlander? Well I’ve been studying the Dutch language for a while, so I know how to pronounce “ui”, “ij”, “aa”, “ee”, and the guttural “g”. I just never heard of a reliable way to identity spies and counter-spies by virtue of pronouncing a single word or phrase before :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/6 "2004-11-16T16:44:46Z")
The word is _scheveningen_. And it’s true. I am German and I was recently tested by Coldfire. I couldn’t even hear that there was a difference between what I said and what he said but to him it was obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/7 "2004-11-16T16:58:01Z")
I’ve heard that about _scheveningen_. As an American who was once nearly fluent in German and also studied a bit of Dutch, the way we’re usually taught to pronounce the Dutch _sch_ is as a soft ‘s’, like at the beginning of an English word, followed by a sound like _ch_ in German _Ich_. In other words, it’s two distinct sounds in rapid succession. Is that not correct? **mlk12** ’s comment makes me wonder if the Dutch sound isn’t a _single_ sound, namely a voiceless fricative which is articulated somewhere between an English _s_ and a German _sch_. Interestingly enough, I learned recently that the _ch_ as in _Ich_ does exist in English, in the way that some people pronounce _h_ in _huge_. Also, while the difference between standard High German and Dutch is well marked, wouldn’t there have been Germans living near the Dutch border who would have spoken Plattdeutsch dialects similar to Dutch, and would have been able to enunciate _schevening_ in the Dutch manner? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/8 "2004-11-16T17:01:34Z")
> [@Roches](#): > > [This page](http://www.andrewsenior.com/shibboleth/list.html) says the shibboleth was ‘Scheveningen’. Native Dutch speakers pronounce \ with separate s and ch sounds (IPA [sx]) while Germans pronounce it with a single sh-sound (the integral symbol in IPA, [S] in SAMPA). I didn’t see this before I posted. So it is two separate sounds in Dutch after all. Now I’m really confused. To me, not a native speaker of either language, the difference between Dutch and German with regard to _sch_ is clear, principly because the German _sch_ is almost exactly equivalent to my _sh_, but the Dutch _sch_ sounds do not exist together in my language. ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/9 "2004-11-16T17:23:48Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I didn’t see this before I posted. So it is two separate sounds in Dutch after all. Now I’m really confused. To me, not a native speaker of either language, the difference between Dutch and German with regard to _sch_ is clear, principly because the German _sch_ is almost exactly equivalent to my _sh_, but the Dutch _sch_ sounds do not exist together in my language. I beliieve they do. like the English word “school”. This is how I understand they pronounce the “sch”, such as the name of their world-famous international airport, “Schophol”. Ah yes! That’s the word! Scheveningen! Thanks everyone! And it’s not just about the “sch” either. The Dutch and Germans have a different way of pronouncing the “g” in that word as well. ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/10 "2004-11-16T17:25:15Z")
> [@ntcrawler](#): > > I beliieve they do. like the English word “school”. This is how I understand they pronounce the “sch”, such as the name of their world-famous international airport, “Schophol”. > > Ah yes! That’s the word! Scheveningen! Thanks everyone! > > And it’s not just about the “sch” either. The Dutch and Germans have a different way of pronouncing the “g” in that word as well. :smack: Er, that should be “SCHIPHOL”! ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/11 "2004-11-16T17:25:55Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I didn’t see this before I posted. So it is two separate sounds in Dutch after all. Now I’m really confused. To me, not a native speaker of either language, the difference between Dutch and German with regard to _sch_ is clear, principly because the German _sch_ is almost exactly equivalent to my _sh_, but the Dutch _sch_ sounds do not exist together in my language. It is two sounds. When I tried to proonounce it, it tried to use the dutch pronounciation. The German pronounciation is very different and I can easily hear the difference between it and the Dutch pronounciation. The Germans hiding in the Netherlands probably would have tried to do that, too. > [@mkl12](#): > > It’s true Of course I only meant that it is difficult for Germans to say that word. I have no idea about the test for war criminals. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/12 "2004-11-16T21:03:27Z")
> [@ntcrawler](#): > > OK, now is this even possible? Is there a word or phrase that Dutch can pronounce, but Germans, because of the differences in the languages cannot? No less a person the POTUS J.F.K. referred to Cuba as Cuber! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/13 "2004-11-16T21:59:37Z")
> [@ntcrawler](#): > > I beliieve they do. like the English word “school”. No, ‘school’ is pronounced as if it were written ‘skool’. That’s not the same as the sequence of consonants represented in Dutch by _sch_. ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/14 "2004-11-16T22:03:42Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > No, ‘school’ is pronounced as if it were written ‘skool’. That’s not the same as the sequence of consonants represented in Dutch by _sch_. What is the proper way to pronounce it then? As far as I can tell, words such as Schiphol are pronounced “skeepohl”, with a plain-jane s-k sound. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/15 "2004-11-16T23:26:57Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > No, ‘school’ is pronounced as if it were written ‘skool’. That’s not the same as the sequence of consonants represented in Dutch by _sch_. That’s the American usage – at least some English and Canadian speakers say “shool” as though it were a Yiddish _shul_. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/16 "2004-11-17T00:12:53Z")
Heck, I remember lots of WWII movies where the American sentrys had a password to detect Germans trying to sneak into there camp. Always had a word starting with the W sound, which everybody knew Germans would mispronounce as V! ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/17 "2004-11-17T03:43:50Z")
School, Schiphol, Scheveningen, etc. have a hard G. Try to pretend you have something stuck in your throat. Then say SGGGGGGoal - it’s the closest I can desbribe it for you. The German sch is much softer, more like sjjjjj Schiphol is pronounced: SGGGGGG hip oll - no eeee sound, no sk sound. **ntcrawler** , The story is supposedly true. 🙂 Scheveningen is a seaside resort and was used during WWII by the resistance to smuggle people overseas to England. [I hope you had a great time in Eindhoven, have you seen A’dam? :)] ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/18 "2004-11-19T05:59:27Z")
So no one has an idea what my mother’s word might be? It might actually be a phrase, but it wasn’t Scheveningen, because that’s not got the “ui” sound in it. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/19 "2004-11-19T06:09:58Z")
> [@ntcrawler](#): > > I just never heard of a reliable way to identity spies and counter-spies by virtue of pronouncing a single word or phrase before :dubious: Do a Bible search for ‘shibboleth.’ ;j ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069/20 "2004-11-19T09:16:42Z")
There’s a similar tale about the Norman rule of Sicily. The Sicilian Vespers rebelled in 1285 and hunted down the remnants of the Angevin French, killing anyone who could not pronounce “ciciri” (bean). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-finding-germans-among-them-after-wwii/275069.md?page=2)