# Dutch Hospital Euthanizing Gravely Ill Babies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553 "2004-12-01T20:00:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/61 "2004-12-02T05:38:51Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > This issue has important moral implications. Such a decision ought not to be made (only) by parents or doctors. Secrecy increases the chances of abuse. All of society needs to be involved in this issue. All of society? Such as a whole nation? And, why should you think that parents and doctors would tend to want to do evil to children? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/62 "2004-12-02T05:42:45Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > I am not without sympathy for parents of sick babies, sheesh. If the child is going to “die anyway,” though, what is the rush? Pain can be managed. I just can’t see speeding up the process. This sounds completely backward. “They’re terminally ill and in great pain, so the humane thing to do is keep them alive and in pain for as long as possible?” I don’t see the reasoning. > [@](#): > > The criteria today is “terminally ill AND in pain” but let’s not kid ourselves. Tomorrow it will be “terminally ill.” Then, perhaps a few years down the line, it’ll be “seriously ill with little chance of recovery.” This doesn’t have slippery slope potential, it has drop-off-a-cliff potential. Yes, let’s not kid oursleves: this is a fallacy and that’s all it is. > [@](#): > > The assumption that they’d WANT to be killed is just going to spill over to adults who can’t make that decision for themselves (Terry Schiavo, anyone?). Wanting to die isn’t an issue here, I think. A terminally ill baby with severe damage like the kinds being discussed will probably never be able to want to die in the first place. But it’s going to die. The question is whether that’ll be slow and painful or whether it will happen relatively soon. > [@](#): > > What’s going to happen to older children who become sick, I wonder? Say the kid is 8 and comes down with some form of cancer that’s supposedly terminal. Is it gonna be okay for the parents to order the doctor to kill them? This entire story is about people who are unable to make a decision. Eight-year-olds don’t qualify unless they fall into the earlier categories of being in a coma or having severe brain damage or something. You’ve shown that you have no trouble applying this to people it’s clearly not intended to apply to, but I don’t think you’ve shown that that’s going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/63 "2004-12-02T06:04:37Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > I also wanted to add that this what I was talking about when I said the Dutch were the most sensible society. Much like things such as prostitution and drug use, they acknowledge what is already happening. People are going to do this anyway, so why not bring it out in the open where it can be safely regulated and watched. It’s a very sane and responsible way of governing, as opposed to just sticking our collective heads in the sand like we do in the US. Good point. The Dutch know every now and then babies are born horribly wrong, and you just gotta do what’s best. This is just part of the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/64 "2004-12-02T06:42:26Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > What happens when one of these babies is killed, an autopsy is performed and it turns out they weren’t as sick as the doctors thought? The criteria today is “terminally ill AND in pain” but let’s not kid ourselves. Tomorrow it will be “terminally ill.” Then, perhaps a few years down the line, it’ll be “seriously ill with little chance of recovery.” This doesn’t have slippery slope potential, it has drop-off-a-cliff potential. Bull. We are talking about babies that have such conditions as MISSING BRAINS and KEY ORGANS NECROTIZING. This is not a slippery slope. It’s just fricking obvious. And you are confusing the issue in a very serious way when you confuse the euthanasia of babies with no higher brain with the severely mentally disabled who are brain dead and the question of whether they should be kept on life support indefinately given that they never had the mental capacity before the coma to make the call one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/65 "2004-12-02T08:50:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hmmm…while this does make me uneasy, I’m assuming this is absolute, last resort, no hope, etc. For something like Tay-Sachs, or Harlequin Fetus, perhaps? Not sure if I really want to get too embroiled in this discussion, but as I understand it, prognosis seems to be a statistical process, rather than absolute; take the case of Harlequin Ichthyosis - until I read [this](http://www.10news.com/health/3919722/detail.html) news story, I always thought the condition was utterly hopeless. Now of course it _ **is** _ utterly hopeless in the vast majority of cases, but what I think we’re looking at here is snipping off one end of the survivability bell-curve, rather than dealing with a black-and-white-definitely-no-hope prognosis. It may be that this can still be considered acceptable (I’m not even going to _try_ to take up a position on that) - maybe there is a reasonable line that can be drawn that reduces overall suffering, while still possibly needlessly ending the lives of some individuals who would not actually have turned out to be truly hopeless cases; I’m not sure how to look at that. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/66 "2004-12-02T08:58:46Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > … why should you think that parents and doctors would tend to want to do evil to children? Many newspapers have internet versions you can access for free. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/67 "2004-12-02T09:28:29Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Many newspapers have internet versions you can access for free. Please cite these newspaper reports where parents AND doctors together conspired to kill a healthy child? My guess is to the extent that this already exists, with a doctor to sign off with a plausible cause of death for a newborn baby quesions wouldn’t be asked. And what mother with a willing doctor who didn’t want the kid wouldn’t work out an abortion? We are talking here about the scenario where keeping the kid alive is deemed unsatisfactory only after the child is born. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/68 "2004-12-02T09:37:36Z")
**yojimbo:** _We’re not talking about unwanted handicapped kids here._ **Abbie:** _Actually yes we are, because they’re already thinking of other cases to use it: “In August, the main Dutch doctors’ association KNMG urged the Health Ministry to create an independent board to review euthanasia (search) cases for terminally ill people “with no free will,” including children, the severely mentally retarded and people left in an irreversible coma after an accident.”_ **Abbie** , you’re not reading carefully. The proposed review simply opens up the possibility of euthanasia **for the terminally ill** who cannot make that decision for themselves, just like the suffering newborns in the OP. There is absolutely **no** suggestion that this be applied to handicapped or retarded people **who are not close to death already**. Nobody is suggesting that handicapped or retarded people should be euthanized just for being handicapped or retarded. Euthanasia is **only for those who are already dying**. We are not on a slippery slope to eugenic executions of the non-dying “unfit”, and if at some future time it should look as though we might be, you can count on me to help make a big fuss about it. Concerning the existing proposals, though, your fears are unjustified. However, I continue to concur with those who think that such policies should be formally legalized and transparent. The best way to stay off a slippery slope is to watch carefully where we’re going. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/69 "2004-12-02T10:04:23Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > I’m curious your opinion about incurable pain. There is a level of pain that morphine can not address, so much as sufficient theraputic doses would in fact be fatal. Would you allow this (being, in reality, killing the patient with painkillers)? Or would you have them remain in pain? Just worth adding, that this is precisely the palliative care offered in the UK to terminally ill cancer patients. I have watched as, day by day, morphine dosage was increased to block out continually worsening pain until, one day, the morphine itself was just a little too much for a failing system. Julian ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/70 "2004-12-02T10:35:28Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > My friend, you have clearly never experienced the amazingly egalitarian freedom that one experiences in the Netherlands. One would almost think from your comment that you had prematurely judged, and therefore misrepresented, this country. The problem is that it is a very slippery slope. Try watching German propaganda films from the 1930s. They very carefully prepare the population to accept and support euthanasia and other eugenics measures. They make it all sound very humane and reasonable. “Life Unworthy of Life” (Lebensunwertes Lebens) was the popular phrase. The definition was very plastic and was quickly expanded to include anyone who might impose a financial burden on the state, or was “defective” in some other way. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/71 "2004-12-02T13:37:25Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I take back my comment earlier. Calling you retarded would be a great insult to the retarded. Yes, it **is** a great insult to the retarded. I’m going to be charitable here and assume you didn’t really want to insult people with mental disabilities. I’d like to think you’re merely careless, and not the sort of classless individual who would really say this and mean it. Calling someone retarded is a taunt most of us left behind when we outgrew the swing sets. Incidentally, **Zagadka** , it appears the ignorance on this subject is your own. Heroin is a great pain reliever, allowing equivalent analgesic qualities to morphine but requiring far smaller a dose. Many countries use it in this way, including Great Britain. I have long thought our country was quite backwards for not allowing its use at all. In fact, I wrote an op-ed in 1990 calling for changes in the law on this subject, so this is not a recent belief of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/72 "2004-12-02T14:57:18Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > About the severely mentally retarted, I think if you have no hope of ever being able to care for yourself or live outside an institution, I think your parents should be able to make that decision. I know I’m going to get fried for this, but we are not an endagered species. I see no reason to bankrupt families or burden taxpayers (long term care of this sort is unspeakably expensive) just because ‘all human life is precious’. No, it’s not. Objectively, I realize that this is an issue on which reasonable people may hold different opinions. Subjectively, I shudder at your willingness to kill another human being. I don’t know where you are, but I’d encourage you to spend some time with the “profoundly retarded.” They smile. They enjoy things. They can’t communicate through spoken language well, but they are undeniably ALIVE. Every year, my K of C council sponsors a “Casino Night” at a local care facility for the retarded. It’s one that we support through [KOVAR](http://www.kovarva.com/), the **K** nights **o** f **V** irginia **A** ssisting the **R** etarded, a private organization that is the largest single contributor to the cause of assisting the mentally challenged in Virginia. The facility cares for a wide range of individuals, from those that could live with assistance in a group home setting (but are unable to find or pay for such a home) to those profoundly mentally and physically challenged people who require near-constant care. Our “Casino Night” consists of setting up simple games and supplying lots of toy prizes; the folks that can play the simple games do so to win prozes, and those for whom that effort is too much are still entertained by the shining colors of spinning wheels and prizes as they’re wheeled from station to station. I would note that KOVAR is privately funded, not a recipient of tax dollars. We, the Knights, raise money for KOVAR every year, and we do it in part so that individuals such as yourself will understand that there is an alternative to killing these people for convenience or cost savings. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/73 "2004-12-02T15:24:21Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > The babys that we are talking about here have vital parts missing. > [@Apos](#): > > We are talking about babies that have such conditions as MISSING BRAINS and KEY ORGANS NECROTIZING. Perhaps those are the babies you are talking about. In which case you are talking about a fictional, idealized, GD version of euthanasia where everyone agrees that the pain is untreatable and the child will always die very soon. Enjoy the intellectual exercise. Meanwhile, out there in the real world, the Groningen Protocol covers children up to age 12. The people concerned about a slipperly slope are already correct – it’s slipped. I’d say we’re at the bottom, but I don’t believe that either. The clear, unarguable moral imperative is on the proponents of child euthanasia to get us back up the slope if this is to become an acceptible policy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/74 "2004-12-02T15:57:57Z")
Can anyone arguing there’s a slippery slope point to a specific case in which they believe that the euthanasia is unjustified? I’d like to discuss those cases so that we’re not, in manhattan’s words, engaging in an intellectual exercise. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/75 "2004-12-02T16:02:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Can anyone arguing there’s a slippery slope point to a specific case in which they believe that the euthanasia is unjustified? Do you mean something like a case where a patient was believed to be terminally ill and life was deliberately ended, but they later made a full recovery? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/76 "2004-12-02T16:14:20Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Do you mean something like a case where a patient was believed to be terminally ill and life was deliberately ended, but they later made a full recovery? Yes, that’s exactly what I mean :rolleyes: One wonderful tip to discussing issues: don’t assume another person means something profoundly stupid. If there’s some ambiguity in what they’re saying, look for an intepretation that makes some sense. For example: in this case, you could’ve assumed I was looking for cases that would be covered by this protocol, but that didn’t result in euthanasia, instead resulting in the patient’s living of a satisfying life. Or you could assume I was asking for cases that would be covered by the protocol, but that you (the generic you) believe should not result in euthanasia. The former would be an interesting discussion; the latter, as it turns out, is what I intended to be discussed. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/77 "2004-12-02T16:24:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > life was deliberately ended, but they later made a full recovery? Your losing me unless you mean the Big JC. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/78 "2004-12-02T16:27:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Yes, that’s exactly what I mean :rolleyes: > > One wonderful tip to discussing issues: don’t assume another person means something profoundly stupid. If there’s some ambiguity in what they’re saying, look for an intepretation that makes some sense. Since we’re exhanging tips, here’s one for you: This symbol----\> ? Denotes a question, not an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/79 "2004-12-02T16:29:39Z")
**Zagadka** > [@](#): > > Calling you retarded would be a great insult to the retarded. [Moderator Hat ON] That is quite enough from you. I had emailed you a final warning previously in addition to your previous public warnings, and now you are banned. If wish to discuss this, please email a mod or admin. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553/80 "2004-12-02T16:33:45Z")
**Bricker** , I understand retards are nice people. No one is advocating killing them because they’re retarded. They’re giving them the same ability to end their lives should they be suffering with no hope of survival as non-retardad people. **mks** , I really don’t think that the slope between eugenics and euthanasia is really all that slippery. There is a long way between euthanizing someone because they’re on deaths door, and killing someone because they have a handicapp. I’m sure the Dutch, given their recent history, would not allow the latter case. It may be that calling someone terminally ill is not as clear cut as I think it is, as **manhatten** suggets. The hospital in this case consults outside doctors as well as its own staff, so I’d imagine that they go ahead only if there is a consensus amongst multiple doctors that the person is terminal. If someone has evidence to the contrary, Id be williing to read it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-hospital-euthanizing-gravely-ill-babies/277553.md?page=5)