# Dutch MP denied entry to UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314 "2009-02-11T02:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/41 "2009-02-11T17:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=furt] (…)but it is essential to note that Wilders has (AFAIK) never advocated violence against Muslims at any time. [/QUOTE] This is true; but he has been indicted by the Amsterdam court now for inciting hatred against minorities on the basis of his comparison between the Quran and Mein Kampf (among other things). I don’t think though the British fear that Wilders’ supporters will start violence but rather that his opponents are going to try to kill him, which is of course a distinct possibility. > [@Wallenstein](#): > > I have no problem with banning Wilders from the UK - he’s should crawl back under his rock and leave us alone. look, he was invited by British parliamentarians, which is to say (if you subscribe to the idea that the UK is somehow a representative democracy) he was indirectly invited by the British people. I was British, I wouldn’t want my political representatives to be curtailed in this way, and I’d sure be pissed off if the Dutch government (i.e. my government, or, more properly, the government of my country) restricted Dutch MPs in this way. To be sure, the entire Dutch parliament and the government have roundly rejected this move by the British in the clearest of terms. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/42 "2009-02-11T17:16:35Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The thing is, Jews are basically parasites at heart. > > The thing is, Africans are basically savages at heart. > > The thing is, Arabs are basically terrorists at heart. > > The thing is, Australians are basically criminals at heart. Tagos Please direct your attention to the terms and conditions set forth by the straight dope. If you really believe what i have posted is racism, then kindly hit the report this post and let the mods decide. Declan ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/43 "2009-02-11T17:17:45Z")
There’s some sort of cautionary aphorism, something involving ‘holes’ and ‘digging’. Can’t quite bring it to mind. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/44 "2009-02-11T17:18:49Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Tagos > > Please direct your attention to the terms and conditions set forth by the straight dope. If you really believe what i have posted is racism, then kindly hit the report this post and let the mods decide. > > Declan 😛 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/45 "2009-02-11T17:24:26Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Tagos > > Please direct your attention to the terms and conditions set forth by the straight dope. If you really believe what i have posted is racism, then kindly hit the report this post and let the mods decide. > > Declan I prefer the fighting ignorance approach by pointing out to you why it was racist. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/46 "2009-02-11T17:38:08Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I prefer the fighting ignorance approach by pointing out to you why it was racist. I seen your definition, i just dont agree with it. I do believe that your statement of wanting to fight ignorance is laudable, however it does not excuse you from calling the mods on me, either call me a racist and let the system decide, or refrain from using that term. Declan ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/47 "2009-02-11T17:45:24Z")
Do the mods get to decide who people can call a racist now? Is being called a racist worse than being called a fascist? Can we just ignore **Declan** and just let the thread go on without his nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/48 "2009-02-11T17:49:27Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Anyways, in your travels and aquaintances you have never heard call for more harsher measures against what ever the down trodden de jour, by ordinary folk who just work for a living? Of course I have. And so, I suspect, have you. > [@](#): > > Do you think that Wilder just happens along for no good reason, for shits and giggles, he is going to going to attract a following? > > The man is a societal reaction to something happening in your country. That other countrys have produced similar type individuals means its now a euro centric phenomenom. There’s a ton of stuff going on over here that can explain Wilders’ popularity. Mainly, there really are problems with certain groups of mostly 2nd generation young Muslim immigrants. There is a discussion between and within pretty much all political parties about what the problem really is, and how best to deal with it. Meanwhile, Wilders walks in and comes up with the “easy answer” - and the man can _talk_; he’s by far the best orator in current politics over here - even if his ideas are crap and he’s useless in a discussion. Of course people are going to vote for him, especially if they perceive the alternatives as nothing more than idle talk. Also don’t forget Fortuyn. > [@](#): > > Over here we call phelps, duke, and zundel complete loony tunes, granted more will appear but i have no doubt that they will be smacked down by us the people, not the govt. Just because you guys have a two-party system doesn’t mean you don’t have a lot of bigots who are popular. They just get sucked into the republican party. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/49 "2009-02-11T18:13:50Z")
I can see both sides of this. Remember there is no god-given right to enter another county. The US denies entry to people based on all sorts of crazy reasons (for example [this guy](http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/04/23/Feldmar/) who was denied entry as he had written essays in the 60s advocating psychedelic drug use in psychiatry). Its common for people with extremist views be denied entry to the UK. Why should this guy be any different ? (and his views ARE clearly extremist). ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/50 "2009-02-11T18:20:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Of course I have. And so, I suspect, have you. > > There’s a ton of stuff going on over here that can explain Wilders’ popularity. Mainly, there really are problems with certain groups of mostly 2nd generation young Muslim immigrants. There is a discussion between and within pretty much all political parties about what the problem really is, and how best to deal with it. Meanwhile, Wilders walks in and comes up with the “easy answer” - and the man can _talk_; he’s by far the best orator in current politics over here - even if his ideas are crap and he’s useless in a discussion. Of course people are going to vote for him, especially if they perceive the alternatives as nothing more than idle talk. > > Also don’t forget Fortuyn. > > **Just because you guys have a two-party system doesn’t mean you don’t have a lot of bigots who are popular. They just get sucked into the republican party**. Actually I am in Canada, and the individual that i posted , one earnst zundel was widely regarded as being a right looney tune. I suspect that I could name several mainstream politicians that had peoples hair raising, but possibly because of the way they were trending, not actually what they actually said. From where I sit, Wilder does not appear any different than that Austrian Haidar, or the french chap, in the end the people spoke and they were defeated. Declan ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/51 "2009-02-11T18:45:38Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I can see both sides of this. Remember there is no god-given right to enter another county. The US denies entry to people based on all sorts of crazy reasons (for example [this guy](http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/04/23/Feldmar/) who was denied entry as he had written essays in the 60s advocating psychedelic drug use in psychiatry). > > Its common for people with extremist views be denied entry to the UK. Why should this guy be any different ? (and his views ARE clearly extremist). Well the UK now is part of the EU and subject to it’s laws so it is not entirely free to do whatever it wants in this or other respects. Which, BTW, I think is a good thing for everybody concerned. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/52 "2009-02-11T19:07:15Z")
Deleted repeated post ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/53 "2009-02-12T08:30:43Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well the UK now is part of the EU and subject to it’s laws so it is not entirely free to do whatever it wants in this or other respects. Which, BTW, I think is a good thing for everybody concerned. EU or not, the UK is absolutely free to deny entry to whomever it damn pleases to deny entry. This is not to say that the British decision is a wise one, or a fair one, though. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/54 "2009-02-12T09:36:27Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Non-UKers, would you support banning Wilders from your country? I’m Dutch and all in favour of banning Wilders from our country! ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/55 "2009-02-12T11:32:23Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > EU or not, the UK is absolutely free to deny entry to whomever it damn pleases to deny entry. This is not to say that the British decision is a wise one, or a fair one, though. No. It is NOT “absolutely free to deny entry to whomever it damn pleases to deny entry”. It is not even “relatively free” because it has signed the EU treaties which govern this matter and also its decisions can be appealed to the EU courts. > [@](#): > > [http://mighealth.net/uk/index.php/European\_Union\_Nationals](http://mighealth.net/uk/index.php/European_Union_Nationals) > > Rights of Free Movement > > Nationals of the Member States of the EU and of the EEA enjoy the right of free movement under EU law, and are only subject to limited immigration control. The right of free movement is primarily governed by the EC Treaty, regulations and directives adopted under it, and the European Economic Area Agreement. > > Although immigration authorities are entitled to continue to check the passports or identity cards of those seeking to enter in order to ascertain identity and nationality, they are not entitled to ask any further questions about intention, availability of funds, sponsors or the like. It may well be that the treaties specify some conditions (like criminal past, etc) where a member state may deny entry but in general citizens of EU countries have a right to enter the UK which cannot be denied by the authorities of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/56 "2009-02-12T11:40:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wonder how Salmon Rushdie works into this newly invented concern for safety. The previous government in Denmark barred Rushdie from entering the country. Also on some spurious security concerns. Boy did that ever generate a shit storm. They lost in the next election – not a little part because of it. And they are still taking heat from it, now more than a decade later. And for a good reason too. “community harmony” – what the hell is that? What an ominous sounding phrase. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/57 "2009-02-12T11:42:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Its common for people with extremist views be denied entry to the UK. Why should this guy be any different ? (and his views ARE clearly extremist). Too right! We banned Snoop Dog at one point, so I’ve no objection to this racist asshole being prevented from setting up a soapbox…unless it is on Hyde Park Corner. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/58 "2009-02-12T11:55:24Z")
It’s all [perfectly legal](http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/oct/28/terrorism-uksecurity) so there is no need for all this EU paranoia. > [@](#): > > Foreign-born “preachers of hate” and other violent extremists will have to prove they have publicly renounced their views or be refused entry to Britain under tough new rules unveiled today. > > The measures, set out in a written ministerial statement by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, will make it easier to exclude those who want to come to the UK to stir up religious or racial hatred. > > \ > > The move will cover anti-abortionists, animal rights extremists and neo-Nazis as well as extremist clerics. > > \ > > The ban rests on the government’s legal powers to tackle violent extremism and incitement to religious and racial hatred. It does not permit somebody to be banned for simply holding disagreeable political views but will apply to those who advocate illegal means to further them. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/59 "2009-02-12T11:59:15Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No. It is NOT “absolutely free to deny entry to whomever it damn pleases to deny entry”. It is not even “relatively free” because it has signed the EU treaties which govern this matter and also its decisions can be appealed to the EU courts. > It may well be that the treaties specify some conditions (like criminal past, etc) where a member state may deny entry but in general citizens of EU countries have a right to enter the UK which cannot be denied by the authorities of the UK. Actually, no, a criminal past isn’t sufficient grounds, but the debate is whether the following is applicable in this case: > [@](#): > > Article 27 > > General principles > > 1. Subject to the provisions of this Chapter, Member States may restrict the freedom of movement and residence of Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of nationality, on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. These grounds shall not be invoked to serve economic ends. > > 2. Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures. > > The personal conduct of the individual concerned must represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Justifications that are isolated from the particulars of the case or that rely on considerations of general prevention shall not be accepted. [http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0038R(01):EN:NOT](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0038R(01):EN:NOT) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314/60 "2009-02-12T12:10:06Z")
In any case, these decisions can always be appealed to the European Court and the UK is bound by the ruling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dutch-mp-denied-entry-to-uk/485314.md?page=4)