Dvorak keyboard

But it’s not even that much difference. Many people do “type” like an old farm truck - somewhere between hunt-and-peck and untrained. Most of us who have had to type a lot for business or professional reasons have acquired pretty good running speed. It’s more like the difference between a high-end Mustang and maybe a highest-end Vette.

So even if we concede that Dvorak is good for, say, a 10% speed improvement… it won’t make any difference to about 99% of keyboard users these days. Even if an unskilled typist decides to learn D instead of Q, it means s/he can’t efficiently use the near-100% majority of Q systems out there without reverting to hunt-and-peck or at least much slower typing.

[ul]
[li]Dvorak has some goodness to it. Not much.[/li][li]Every computer made can be switched to D mode in a few minutes, and set to toggle between D and Q easily.[/li][li]Hardcore users can switch keycaps around or buy a Dvorak keyboard. (Although the argument really means blank keycaps would work just as well.)[/li][li]This argument means vastly less than it did 50 years ago.[/li][li]To each his dag-nab blue-eyed own.[/li][/ul]

In my experience, most people who type now don’t need to be that fast; speed is great for transcription, but most of us are thinking and editing as we type. I can just about keep up with my brain at 40 wpm; I don’t need to go any faster. And I don’t really believe I could learn another keyboard as well as I know qwerty; I can speak and type different things at the same time - my fingers are hardwired.

To return to the car analogy - why would I want a car that goes 120, when the speed limit is 65? (That’s not a very persuasive analogy, is it?)

You only think at 40 wpm? It sounds like you can use some stronger coffee in the morning.

That’s not what he said; he said he could keep up typing 40wpm.

I suppose there are writers out there who simply cannot get the words onto the screen fast enough, hour after hour, but at the end of a busy day writing stuff I probably averaged 15-20wpm. I can use the time a few long sentences take to rethink them on the fly and think about what’s to follow. So even if my typing speed were much slower it would be no bottleneck to my creative production process.

Just about the only group of users I can think of where sheer, raw typing speed would be an asset would be people transcribing written material into electronic form. Publishers still have a huge backlog of titles with no electronic files, so it’s a whole industry. An awful one. :smiley:

I type in Dvorak because i find it more comfortable, not for any particular speed improvement.

After years and years, i can now touch-type both, but much prefer Dvorak when I can use it.

I have not argued that people who are competent on qwerty actually will switch or need to switch but rather that if they do they will probably recoup their investment in saved time a bit at a time for the rest of their lives . I type about an hour a day now and even five minutes saved every day for a year is a substantial amount of time .I expect to be typing for another twenty years. Young people may be typing for another fifty years.

Now it is not directly relevant to this discussion but it is well known that mastering new skills and knowledge contributes to our mental and physical health as we grow older and this alone is quite possibly sufficient justification for learning Dvorak if one is already middle aged.

As of 2005, Barbara Blackburn, of Salem, Oregon, is the fastest English language typist in the world, according to The Guinness Book of World Records. Using the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, she has maintained 150 words per minute for 50 min, 170 words per minute for shorter periods and has been clocked at a peak speed of 212 words per minute. Blackburn, who failed her typing class in high school, first encountered the Dvorak keyboard in 1938, quickly learned to achieve very high speeds, and occasionally toured giving speed-typing demonstrations during her secretarial career.[1]
I spent my career doing things with my hands and switched from one dominant technology to another several times. For instance the second to last new tractor I bought had a dedicated lever to shift from forward to reverse which worked much faster than shifting the previous tractor that had a lever that supported six forward speeds as well as reverse. My current tractor has a finger operated electronic shifter and fully automatic transmission and it works even faster saving even more time.

Now I didn’t scrap my older tractor but just about every new top quality tractor has an electrically controlled transmission because five minutes here and five minutes there day after day adds up the real time in a decade.

Personally I do not doubt that qwerty will remain the default go to layout because schools and educators are among the most hidebound of all institutions and professions.

I just want this marvelous and priceless site to revisit this question in light of the fact that Dvorak is now accessible for free to just about anybody.

The name of it after all is STRAIGHT DOPE is it not?

Countless people who might otherwise try Dvorak will fail to do so if they check this site and don’t get the full story. Some of them will suffer adverse health consequence in the form of carpal tunnel and arthritis in their hands to a greater extent than necessary.

Now as to why there aren’t any truly independent studies comparing the two layouts, well, the situation is altogether too much akin to the reasons there have been so few studies of the safety and efficacy of pot as a medicine.

The people in a position to fund such studies are almost all in the camp of those with a vested interest in qwerty and keeping pot out of drugstores because they can’t patent it.Pot is going to cut into the highly lucrative sale of any number of patented drugs.

The people in the Dvorak camp have no opportunity to benefit from funding such a study and setting one up that is up to snuff would cost an arm and a leg because it would take a long time for it to generate objective results rather than just a misleading conclusion to the effect that the test subjects don’t always pick up enough speed and accuracy to justify retraining.

This may actually be a true and honest conclusion but it is not the answer to the question of which layout is inherently the superior on.

A fair test would involve training novice typists from scratch on both keyboards by teachers equally well trained in comparable classrooms with the provision that the teachers teaching the Dvorak keyboard must be personally highly proficient on Dvorak.

Otherwise teachers with a lifetime investment in qwerty will inevitably teach qwerty more enthusiastically than Dvorak and their students will pick up on their prejudice and follow up on it themselves to a substantial extent.

Kids that have been hunting and pecking and self training on qwerty will have a headstart on kids who have never used computers at all faced with learning Dvorak although this would fade way over the span of a school year in my personal estimation.

I know about such bias in the classroom having once been a professionally trained and licensed teacher myself.

I’m an old fxrt in many respects but I am willing to admit that the old ways are not always the best ways.

Most people with a vested interest in an old skill or a little face at stake aren’t willing to consider the possibility that a new technology is a better technology and worth the trouble of adapting to it.

Dvorak is now virtually universally available in a couple of seconds via a keyboard short cut at zero cost and making the transition can be a personal affair and does not require retraining any body at all .

Mac, if it works for you, it works for you. I think there is a general willingness to concede that Dvorak promotes somewhat faster typing, and that with remappable keyboards on almost every computer there is no downside to it except the trouble to learn the system.

That said, there’s just not much upside to it, either. Next to no one types pages by the hour any more, and few uses of keyboard entry are bottlenecked by typing speed - even writing or data entry tend to be bursts of typing interrupted by significant pauses to do something else. I’d say as many keystrokes are expended on “control” functions as text entry, and a more efficient typing system has no effect on those.

I appreciate your passion for the topic. I concede you’re right as far as it goes. But I can’t help thinking you’re trying to whip up enthusiasm for a wholly obsolete need.

And what incredible job did this ability open up for her that would have been unavailable to someone who could only type at 100 wpm or so? How many jobs out there require the ability to type half that fast?
What real life advantage does such an ability give you?

Well, presumably whenever she needs to type something it doesn’t take very long! :smiley:

I remember secretaries with typewriters and ammonia transfer copies early in my career - back when “carbon copy” meant real carbons! If you wanted ten letters to go out to clients you might have just typed them all outright…

Nowadays tools have advanced so far: PDFs, dictation software, “Siri”, etc. - heck even cheap long distance airtime, means we all have a “Barbara Blackburn after her morning espresso jolt” in our pockets, figuratively speaking. I don’t think the need went away so much as became automated away from direct human labor such that it’s no longer a productivity constraint.

Somehow, this thread reminds me of the legend of John Henry on the railroad that died trying to “beat” the machine invented to replace his occupation. I’m sure he could’ve used a more ergonomic handle on that hammer, but the result would have been the same.

I’ve made my point and provoked a discussion of the Dvorak keyboard and thereby accomplished my goal of making sure a lot of new people hear about it.

A few of them will switch.

Thrasymachus is on the money about John Henry and a man trying to outrun a machine but the analogy does not quite hold because a hundreds of millions of people are going to be typing for a good long time yet and the potential for more efficient typing is enormous.

I didn’t set out expecting anybody already proficient in qwerty to change their mind about Dvorak except perhaps in the case of those who are having physical problems.

But a lot of kids probably read this site too. Kids are more open minded and very fast learners and a few of them will try Dvorak and save themselves a lot of time and aggravation for however long typing remains a needed skill.

Personally I won’t ever use voice recognition soft ware because I detest the sound of my own voice and find it sort of demeaning to talk to a machine so I will likely be typing until I croak.

My personal incentive isn’t great, but it might be interesting to designate a few school districts as Dvorak districts, teach the kids Dvorak at whatever age kids learn keyboarding and see how the kids like it. It’s probably a lot like getting Americans to rip off the bandaid and go metric, already.

I probably don’t type much above 30 wpm, despite sitting in front of a keyboard all day and my accuracy sucks, but I can, in a pinch, touch type on a qwerty. Why would I want to spend hours learning a new keyboard? Qwerty is as automatic as it’s going to get for me, and if I really gave a shit, I would go back to my teach yourself typing lessons and improve what I already know, rather than trying to teach my lazy old brain and muscle memory conditioned fingers something new.

Anyone who sits at my computer, or the IT guys who go into it to fix something can barely cope with my left-handed (yes, I switched the buttons) mouse. Imagine the meltdown if my keyboard was completely reconfigured.

More efficient typing isn’t going to make any typist’s job easier. If you type twice as fast, that just means that your workload will double…but your pay won’t. Those rare times the Dvorak system may(for you have yet to provide any independent studies) be advantageous over the QUERTY system are not worth unlearning the old to learn the new, especially if there is no demand from employers that potential employees do so. Frankly, it’s as if you are trying to convince people to switch from VHS to Betamax. Time is precious, jobs are scarce, and I doubt you can name 1 major employer that will hire you over someone else just because you will bring in your own keyboard laid out for Dvorak. It’s the company computer, the company monitor and the company keyboard that you will be using, and they decide how it is set up.

You must have some really bizarre keyboard layout yourself.

The “W” is rather faded.

I type Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard (as does my husband). I even went to the trouble to locate a typewriter with a Dvorak layout for my bar exam (the trick was to find one that would type Dvorak but didn’t have a memory, which was forbidden during the exam - found it on ebay, from some college in Ohio that was liquidating old stuff).

IT guys hate me, but other than that, it’s no problem. Even they usually cope OK once I explain to them how to toggle the keyboard layout.

We gave my daughter (almost 10) the option of learning either, and she decided to stick with Qwerty. Of course, she can’t type for shit on any keyboard right now - we’ll see how she feels once she actually learns.

Wow. There’s a new definition of “single minded” in town… :slight_smile:

But is her speed due to the Dvorak keyboard, and if so, by how much? As I said before, in competitions, the people involved may grab at anything that they THINK might give them an advantage.

Even if there was an advantage, how much of one was there? If her competitor typed on a standard keyboard at 145 wpm, Ms. Blackburn would still be the fastest. Her Dvorak advantage would be a mere 2%. It’s not going to make much difference at the 60 to 70 wpm of most secretaries.

We’re a wee bit snarky there, aren’t we? Most people learn to type on there own. My sons can type about 45 wpm simply because they grew up with keyboards. They could have used a Dvorak layout if they thought it would help. They used Macs and Macs came with a Dvorak keyboard layout.

It’s illegal to use federal government money to study the use of Dvorak keyboards because it can get you high?

So, Big Typewriter is suppressing the use of the Dvorak keyboard?

Again, the Dvorak advocates had their heyday in the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s. The Selectric made it easy to change any typewriter in the corporate typing pool to a Dvorak keyboard. That should have eliminated any mechanical issue with wide spread Dvorak adoption.

If the Dvorak was so much better, one of the secretarial schools would have picked it up and taught it. Their graduates could type 20% faster. Their students would have gotten the higher paid jobs. The school would have made more money. Other secretarial schools would have picked it up. The Dvorak keyboard should have rapidly spread throughout the career secretaries. But that didn’t happen.

Instead, Dvorak advocates talk about conspiracies and personal experience. Doubters are unenlightened, or actively suppressing the truth. It’s the same thing I here from the anti-vaccine squad and the 9/11 truthers.

It shouldn’t be too difficult to make a keyboard arrangement more efficient that the qwerty which, if we believe legend, was created to prevent key jamming rather than typing efficiency.

The Dvorak had its chance, but never caught on. It wasn’t due to conspiracy. In the end, it just didn’t
Prove to be any better.

In a typical day I use at least two keyboards, sometimes four or five. I have to share at least one of them with someone else so it has to be QWERTY. It would drive me crazy, and slow me down, if I had some set up with Dvorak and some with QWERTY and had to reset my brain every time I used a different computer. No thanks.

It’s kinda weird, but this whole discussion has turned into an alternate-reality version of Metric v. American Customary measurements.

I don’t know if that’s significant, but I’m just sayin’. :confused: