# Dwarf Fortress opinions. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848 "2013-05-20T18:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/1 "2013-05-20T18:05:18Z")
Hello good people, Can anyone give me the low down on this game? I’ve read the Wiki and Wikia articles on the program but am still left somewhat confused about the essence of the game. If it’s relevant I was lead to the game due to my love of Sim-City type games along with the Commander and Conquer series. Hardware on the PC is sufficient, it runs Crysis, just! Peter ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/2 "2013-05-20T18:18:42Z")
An amazing game - one of the deepest ever created. Way beyond what I’m willing to learn in terms of complexity. Just couldn’t quite wrap my head around it. There’s no way to “win” the game. The fun is in seeing how far you can get before your dwarves go mad and kill one another, or get overrun by elephants, or dig too deep and unleash terrible monsters. Your dwarves will react to the things that happen around them in really interesting ways. Lots of neat stuff. There’s a wiki with plenty of information including detailed start guides and even quickstart save files you can download and use. Though I see on further review that you found it already. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/3 "2013-05-20T18:38:33Z")
Hello Johnny, what did you expect the game to be like? I also realized that this was fiendishly and deceptively complex, here be dragons etc. The general Sim type games I can ‘get my head around’ but this particular bit of software seems to need a more considered and adult approach, Angry Birds it ain’t. I think what I’m after is an overview, I can describe Sim City in terms of balancing city income against allocating resources and city happiness, but I can’t yet find the ‘in’ with DF. Ho Hum, or Heigh ho!. Peter ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/4 "2013-05-20T18:39:36Z")
If you are willing to learn the incredibly complicated and insanely shitty UI that controls the gameplay you will be entertained for hours upon hours. The game is deeper than anything else that has ever been made or even attempted, and often broken in ways you could not predict. You must be willing to make your own fun, but even the best run fortress is going to descend into madness and bloodshed eventually. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/5 "2013-05-20T18:41:10Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > Hello Johnny, > what did you expect the game to be like? > I also realized that this was fiendishly and deceptively complex, here be dragons etc. > The general Sim type games I can ‘get my head around’ but this particular bit of software seems to need a more considered and adult approach, Angry Birds it ain’t. > > I think what I’m after is an overview, I can describe Sim City in terms of balancing city income against allocating resources and city happiness, but I can’t yet find the ‘in’ with DF. > Ho Hum, or Heigh ho!. > Peter It’s more like the sims than sim city. You don’t directly control your dwarves, you give them jobs to do that they will attempt to fulfill if they can and feel like it. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/6 "2013-05-20T19:28:32Z")
It’s also got a bit of **Minecraft** to it (yes, I know DF was first.) You can do absolutely absurd things like pump lava up to a map-sized reservoir, then use it as a kill-sat for the invasions. But mostly you just marvel at the complexity of a one-programmer game, laugh at the inevitable game-breaking bugs (undead carp, kitten-bombs, etc.,) and enjoy the ride as a burning dwarf decides what he needs _right now_ is to get a mug of 200-proof liquor, sending the entire fortress into a spiral of fire, explosions, insanity and death. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/7 "2013-05-20T19:58:37Z")
A while back I managed to get to the point where I could reliably keep a fortress alive for the first season. I never did manage to start up any industry though, maybe I’ll go back and learn again sometime. It’s neither Sim City, The Sims, nor Command & Conquer. Rather it lies somewhere between all of them. You have much more direct control over your fortress than in a typical city builder. You tell the dwarves where to dig, order where the furniture will be placed, order specific goods to be made, etc. At the same time you don’t really have as much direct control over the dwarves as you do Sims or your troops in an RTS. You can assign them jobs and give them certain work parameters. And you can order specific things to be done, but the dwarves themselves are autonomous. Personally I found the [quickstart guide](http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Quickstart_guide) on the wiki to be the most helpful tutorial. It’s not anywhere near a complete guide, but it covers the basics pretty well. Just don’t go in with the idea of mastering it immediately, or at all. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/8 "2013-05-21T02:33:43Z")
Thanks for all your comments, esp Rubix which was probably the most enlightening and obscure, I take it there is no simple learning curve, it seems to be vertical. It’s not so much assessing an enemy as preparing to fail with dignity, for the first couple of years for me. Damn it I like challenges, rounding against Windmills. I’d presumed a constant set of ruled within a generated game, true? P ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/9 "2013-05-21T02:50:57Z")
There was an [article about it](http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/dwarf-fortress-ten-hours-with-the-most-inscrutable-video-game-of-all-time/) on Ars Technica three months ago. I have no idea if that is accurate, but I’d be interested in finding out. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/10 "2013-05-21T03:04:20Z")
I had a go at Dwarf Fortress about a year ago. The learning cliff proved insurmountable for me. I’m not sure there’s any actual win conditions as such, being able to keep a fortress alive for a whole year was about as far as I got. I don’t think I ever managed to dig deep enough to find the caverns below, as I usually ended up hitting water and flooding the whole place out. The game is insanely complex and detailed. The crafting and trading systems alone are huge. I never really understood combat at all. Each dwarf has their entire life history tracked and if you wish you can find out about their dreams and emotional state! Failing to satisfy their needs makes them depressed, and possibly insane. If indeed you like challenges than this is the game for you I guess. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/11 "2013-05-21T03:09:09Z")
ETA: I just read **ZenBeam’s** linked article - I got a bit further along than the author (I managed to make some things! And tunnel down a few levels), but their reaction to the game is uncannily close to my own. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/12 "2013-05-21T12:01:04Z")
The linked article is good - you can also look up something called “Boatmurdered” for one of the most epic descriptions of Dwarf Fortress in internet history. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/13 "2013-05-22T00:51:16Z")
I love playing Dwarf Fortress but never get very far. It doesn’t matter though - Losing Is Fun! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/14 "2013-05-22T16:59:02Z")
If you decide to give DF a shot, be sure to download and use the Lazy Newb pack, from this [link](http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0). I can’t imagine trying to play the game anymore without the Dwarf Therapist program included in the download. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/15 "2013-05-23T18:26:31Z")
Wiki on one monitor, Df on the other. (prepare to tab a lot if you are single monitor) One of my favorite games ever made, but the learning curve is indeed steep. You can also create your own win scenario, I went through several maps working out how to make a dwarf shower. My first attempt was more like a Nazi shower, I killed about 12 dwarves. (who knew df accurately modeled shit like water pressure?) Eventually though I got one running that was fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/16 "2013-05-23T19:07:25Z")
I really feel like this is a great opportunity for the regular DF vets to start up a game that they hand off every season (year?). Whoever it was that organized that did a great job, and the writeups were awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/17 "2013-05-23T20:11:33Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I love playing Dwarf Fortress but never get very far. It doesn’t matter though - Losing Is Fun! I still haven’t figured out how to get a farm going. Plotted a farm, dug a trench to allow runoff, dug another trench to a nearby water source, flooded plot, all I got was a plotful of water with some mud. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/18 "2013-05-23T20:37:46Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I still haven’t figured out how to get a farm going. Plotted a farm, dug a trench to allow runoff, dug another trench to a nearby water source, flooded plot, all I got was a plotful of water with some mud. I believe you need to move your cursor over the plot and hit “q” to bring up the options. There you can set which crops will be planted for each season. Otherwise you’ll have a farm, but the dwarves won’t do anything to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/19 "2013-05-27T22:22:23Z")
I would like to thank (and curse) **pdunderhill** for starting this thread and introducing me to DF. It is either the most intriguing game I’ve happened on in a long time or the most sophisticated practical joke perpetrated by a software designer and I’m leaving room for it to be both. But it came at a very good time. When my nephew was six he used to sit on my lap and we’d play Master of Orion together. As time went on we shared more games but a year or two ago he got an X-Box and went full on first person shooter, a game genre that bores me to tears. After some good barbecue my nephew and I were enjoying tearing our hair out trying to make the game work and laughing out loud that because after our cat got killed by a snapping turtle there was nothing to stop rats from eating our dwarves food and they starved to death because we couldn’t figure out how to tell someone to stop them. We’ve started exchanging emails updating each other on our next games, it’s nice to love/hate the same game as each other again. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848/20 "2013-05-28T02:15:21Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > I believe you need to move your cursor over the plot and hit “q” to bring up the options. There you can set which crops will be planted for each season. Otherwise you’ll have a farm, but the dwarves won’t do anything to it. Started a new game in Lazy Newb World (thanks, **Mr. S** ) with the default settlers and “q” tells me I have no farmers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarf-fortress-opinions/658848.md?page=2)