# Dwarves in LotR **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227 "2005-12-19T00:34:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/1 "2005-12-19T00:34:49Z")
Are Dwarves in LotR extinct? The party enters the cave and finds ruins because they dug too deep and unleashed whatever. So at that point, is Gimli the last one? He is the only one in the movie while there are plenty of Elves and Humans. I guess at some point I’ll read the books and figure all this out. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/2 "2005-12-19T01:05:44Z")
No, plenty of them left in the Iron Hills, the Blue Mountains, and the Lonely Mountain (re-established by Thorin et al in “The Hobbit”). It was only the dwarves of _Moria_ that were wiped out by the Balrog. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/3 "2005-12-19T01:36:44Z")
Even in the Movie Fellowship of the Ring, you saw Gloin, Gimli’s Dad, at the Council of Elrond. The Dwarves were still numerous but already dwindling in numbers. If you gathered up all the Dwarves in the world the probably wouldn’t match up to the population of Khazad Dum in the First Age. What they unleashed was Durin’s Bane or the Balrog that you saw Gandalf fight on the bridge in Moria (Khazad Dum). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/4 "2005-12-19T02:05:44Z")
And in the 4th age (Aragorn ascendant and ruling the Re-united Realm) Gimli and company move into the Glittering Caves of Aglarond (glimpsed in the movie as the refuge that the women and children of Rohan moved into when Helm’s Deep was besieged) and start a thriving dwarven realm. Eventually they dwindled out and vanished. JRRT didn’t say when exactly they finally became extinct (that I recall anyway). The Longbeards (Durin’s line), Firebeards, Broadbeams probably continued to inhabit the Northwest of Middle earth for a few more hundred years, as did their distant kin far to the east, the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/5 "2005-12-19T07:15:17Z")
They all moved to Anhk-Morpork. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/6 "2005-12-19T09:40:19Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > They all moved to Anhk-Morpork. No, there are no _dwarves_ in Ankh-Morpork. Pterry is quite definite on the point. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/7 "2005-12-19T14:58:00Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > I guess at some point I’ll read the books and figure all this out. Eek. 🙂 Yes, I highly recommend at least hitting the books once. I know a lot of people think they are hard to get through, but stil… You could read the Hobbit, which is much lighter reading and is all about dwarves…and one Hobbit, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/8 "2005-12-19T15:28:41Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No, there are no _dwarves_ in Ankh-Morpork. Pterry is quite definite on the point. Really? I must have missed that. Care to endarken me? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/9 "2005-12-19T15:29:02Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > Are Dwarves in LotR extinct? The party enters the cave and finds ruins because they dug too deep and unleashed whatever. So at that point, is Gimli the last one? He is the only one in the movie while there are plenty of Elves and Humans. I guess at some point I’ll read the books and figure all this out. Supplemental answer: the Balrog was loosed a long time before. Gimli and the Fellowship were hoping to re-establish contact with a colonising expedition that went to Moria to reclaim it, the expedition itself hoping that the Balrog (not clearly identified as such) would have cleared off or something. The expedition went to Moria after the Ring was found, but long before anyone knew how troublesome it was. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/10 "2005-12-19T15:37:34Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Really? I must have missed that. Care to endarken me? Yes, you know **Malacandra** , I’d like to hear the “inside source” on what you mean by this. Presumably PTerry said something along the lines of “the dwarves are not the same as LOTR” or something, but I hate having half-hints dropped and then watching the poster run. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/11 "2005-12-19T15:50:06Z")
I think PTerry’s characters are _dwarfs_, not dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/12 "2005-12-19T15:53:43Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > I think PTerry’s characters are _dwarfs_, not dwarves. Well he can be excused his ignorance, no? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/13 "2005-12-19T16:06:05Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Really? I must have missed that. Care to endarken me? I agree, there are no _dwarves_, but rather People of Differing Height. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/14 "2005-12-19T16:09:58Z")
Mf. A cite is proving harder to track down than I thought, although Googling “Pratchett dwarfs dwarves” gets me a Wiki entry in short order that more or less bears me out; I was hoping for something more directly connected to the pen of the master himself. Anyway, as correctly observed above, Pterry invariably uses the plural form “dwarfs” and is quite clear on the fact that Discworld dwarfs are not _Khazad_, though there are some tips o’ the hat, not least the jaw-cracking nature of the language, fragments of which are seen here and there, usually being effortlessly rattled off by Carrot Ironfoundersson. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/15 "2005-12-19T16:14:51Z")
OK, I see. **Malacandra** was merely referring to a _spelling issue_. I.e., “dwarves” vs “dwarfs”. That hadn’t occurred to me back in his original post on the subject. I’ll just duck out of the thread now. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/16 "2005-12-19T16:16:47Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Mf. A cite is proving harder to track down than I thought, although Googling “Pratchett dwarfs dwarves” gets me a Wiki entry in short order that more or less bears me out; I was hoping for something more directly connected to the pen of the master himself. > > Anyway, as correctly observed above, Pterry invariably uses the plural form “dwarfs” and is quite clear on the fact that Discworld dwarfs are not _Khazad_, though there are some tips o’ the hat, not least the jaw-cracking nature of the language, fragments of which are seen here and there, usually being effortlessly rattled off by Carrot Ironfoundersson. Oh. Ugh. That’s just…bad. Bad, bad, bad, and you should be ashamed of yourself for bringing a semantics joke into a Cafe Society thread. _“The light! It hurt our eyes!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/17 "2005-12-19T16:44:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Oh. Ugh. That’s just…bad. Bad, bad, bad, and you should be ashamed of yourself for bringing a semantics joke into a Cafe Society thread. > > _“The light! It hurt our eyes!”_ Oh. Sorry. 🙂 Just shut up and send me an email, already. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/18 "2005-12-19T17:01:24Z")
The Khazad, issues of English pluralization aside (I’d prefer “dwarrows,” myself! ;)), had two major cities other than Moria (Khazad-Dum) during the First Age: Belegost and Nogrod. They were located in the Blue Mountains that formed the eastern border of Beleriand, and “now” (i.e., end of Third Age) provide a spine for Lindon (formerly the uplands of Ossiriand). Both cities were damaged or destroyed in the cataclysm that sank Beleriand in conjunction with the War of the Valar against Morgoth. Dwarves do continue to have settlements and mine in the Blue Mountains, however. Khazad-Dum continued to be the center of Dwarven civilization through most of the Second Age, and the major trading partner with Eregion, Celebrimbor’s elvenrealm. It was destroyed by the Balrog during the reign of Durin VI. At some point (which I do not have quick reference to), another Dwarf realm was founded based in Erebor, the Lonely Mountain of _The Hobbit_. Connected with this were dwarf colonies in the Iron Hills north of Erebor and the Long Lake. The Dain who succeeds Thorin after the events of _The Hobbit_ was ruler over the dwarves of the Iron Hills. So at the beginning of the Fourth Age we have dwarven populations (a) in the Blue Mountains of Lindon, (b) in Erebor, © in the Iron Hills, and (d) at Aglarond (newly founded by Gimli). Presumably Moria can now be re-taken by dwarves (who would have the obvious claim on it) and reconstructed, with the Balrog deceased and the orcish population diminished by events in the War of the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/19 "2005-12-19T17:08:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Oh. Sorry. 🙂 > > Just shut up and send me an email, already. ☹ On the way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227/20 "2005-12-19T17:09:22Z")
Personally, I think JRR should have stuck to his guns with _dwarrows_, the [del]English[/del]Westron for Moria (dwarrowdelve?) being the only nod I can recall OTTOMH. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dwarves-in-lotr/336227.md?page=2)