# Dying for our sins...for three days? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939 "2005-11-27T18:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/21 "2005-11-28T02:21:41Z")
**Der Trihs** > [@](#): > > …if a god wanted to make the world better, there are all sorts of things it could do; the Crucifixion isn’t even on Der Trihs’s list. coloring mine **Der Trihs** > [@](#): > > That’s a pretty weird way of expressing love. If he had saved my parents from cancer, I’d be more impressed. If he’d stopped Bush from invading Iraq, I’d be impressed. Dying temporarily on a cross - that doesn’t impress me. All of us will die a physical death. He never promised to eliminate this. What he offers is an escape from spiritual death, which is a much bigger thing. In 100 years \*all of us \* here will be dead of cancer, war, murder, old age etc… he is taking care of what happens after that. Allowing us to stand blameless in front of God because Jesus assumed our place of punishment. \*\*Imasquare \*\* > [@](#): > > With God being the supreme power in existence who can do absolutely anything why could He not save us from our sins without sacrificing Himself in the form of Jesus? I guess he could, what would you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/22 "2005-11-28T02:44:52Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > …if a god wanted to make the world better, there are all sorts of things it could do; the Crucifixion isn’t even on Der Trihs list Or on any rational list ( and I believe doing that to people’s quotes is against the rules ). The Crucifixion harmed the world, not helped it; it helped spread Christianity ( and indirectly, Islam ), which I consider history’s greatest single evil. > [@newcrasher](#): > > **Der Trihs** All of us will die a physical death. He never promised to eliminate this. What he offers is an escape from spiritual death, which is a much bigger thing. In 100 years \*all of us \* here will be dead of cancer, war, murder, old age etc… he is taking care of what happens after that. Allowing us to stand blameless in front of God because Jesus assumed our place of punishment. First, nothing that happened to Jesus or anyone else 2000 + years ago has any effect on my guilt ( guilt for _what_ ? ) or lack thereof. Second, God has no right to punish me; it’s not his place. He’s an imaginary being, not a US judge and jury. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/23 "2005-11-28T03:03:29Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The Crucifixion harmed the world, not helped it; it helped spread Christianity ( and indirectly, Islam ), which I consider history’s greatest single evil. Howso? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > First, nothing that happened to Jesus or anyone else 2000 + years ago has any effect on my guilt ( guilt for _what_ ? ) or lack thereof. Second, God has no right to punish me; it’s not his place. He’s an imaginary being, not a US judge and jury If you are truly not-guilty of anything I think you are ok. I don’t think Jesus was familiar with the concept of “original sin”. If you are clean to stand before God, good on ya! From your writing, I don’t think you believe God is not a real being. I think you are having difficulty reconciling your intellect with the faith of following Christ. At least you are searching. If we were arguing the physics of Santa delivering toys to all the good boys and girls in one magical night, you wouldn’t put any energy beyond saying “Dude, Santa isn’t real” into the debate. But somehow the existance of an “imaginary” God is worthy of debate. Yet you are not able to just brush of the existanceof God in the way you would brush off the existance of Santa or the Easter Bunny. I don’t say this to debate really, actually I am glad for it. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/24 "2005-11-28T03:04:12Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I may be wrong, but I understand it to be that supposedly Christ died for our sins. He then rose from his grave three days later. > > I’m confused as to what part of this was sacrifice. I mean, yes, he was tortured horribly, and I presume as he took everyone’s sin he went to Hell - but for three days? That really just doesn’t sound all that bad, considering he’d taken into himself the sin of everyone currently living. Can someone explain this to me? The significance of three days is that, according to Jewish burial customs traced back to BCE times, the body began to rot on the 4th day. By saying Jesus rised up on the third day, it just shows that his body never went into decay (unlike Lazerus). In Mark’s Gospel, there isn’t even a resurrection scene to begin with. As for Jesus dying for our sins, this isn’t exactly true. Many theologians say that Jesus died for the punishment of sins (death). According to Paul, if you believed in Jesus, you wouldn’t die a physical death. He then modified this idea after the first generation of Christians died off and said that believers would suffer physical death, but live eternally in Heaven. So, in a nutshell, Jesus died to save us from death. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/25 "2005-11-28T03:05:02Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I find it hard to believe an omnipotent deity must resort to _human_ ideas (death, pain) in order to teach us a lesson, or to save us. Sounds a bit more like rationalisation by humans after the event. Actually, how else would he communicate with us other than in ways a human can understand? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/26 "2005-11-28T03:09:19Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Actually, how else would he communicate with us other than in ways a human can understand? Why does he need to? He can do _whatever_ he wants - he’s not limited to our understanding of events, he can just _do_ it. And should he feel the need to make sure we know something, he can just _make_ it so. Surely that’s the idea of omnipotency? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/27 "2005-11-28T03:09:30Z")
> [@Hi](#): > > As for Jesus dying for our sins, this isn’t exactly true. Many theologians say that Jesus died for the punishment of sins (death). According to Paul, if you believed in Jesus, you wouldn’t die a physical death. He then modified this idea after the first generation of Christians died off and said that believers would suffer physical death, but live eternally in Heaven. So, in a nutshell, Jesus died to save us from death. Please cite this from the bible. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/28 "2005-11-28T03:11:49Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > And should he feel the need to make sure we know something, he can just _make_ it so. He did. You just don’t like the way he did it I guess… What ideas would you like him to communicate? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/29 "2005-11-28T03:11:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > …All that being said, I no longer believe that. I now believe that Christianity has pretty much hijacked the teachings of Jesus and stressed belief in Christ over the inner spiritual journey that Jesus spoke of. Can I get an Amen?? 😉 What is this “inner spiritual journey” that Jesus spoke of? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/30 "2005-11-28T03:14:43Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > He did. You just don’t like the way he did it I guess… > > What ideas would you like him to communicate? Well, no, the killing of one’s son doesn’t really seem to be the best mode of communication, in my book. In this instance, it seems he sacrificed his son in order to remove our sin, and to show us how much he cares - which, surely, he could just tell us? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/31 "2005-11-28T03:19:45Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Howso?. Do you really want a list of the evils done in the name of Christianity/Islam ? It’s not like they are _obscure_ or anything. > [@newcrasher](#): > > If you are truly not-guilty of anything I think you are ok. I don’t think Jesus was familiar with the concept of “original sin”. If you are clean to stand before God, good on ya! I’m certainly innocent of any and all 2000 year all crimes, which are the only ones the death of Jesus could have relevance to; even then, the death of another would hardly absolve me of anything. > [@newcrasher](#): > > From your writing, I don’t think you believe God is not a real being. I think you are having difficulty reconciling your intellect with the faith of following Christ. At least you are searching. Oh, my disbelief in God/gods is quite firm. Even if he did exist, I wouldn’t follow him or regard him as anything but scum. Supernatural scum, but scum. > [@newcrasher](#): > > If we were arguing the physics of Santa delivering toys to all the good boys and girls in one magical night, you wouldn’t put any energy beyond saying “Dude, Santa isn’t real” into the debate. But somehow the existance of an “imaginary” God is worthy of debate. Yet you are not able to just brush of the existanceof God in the way you would brush off the existance of Santa or the Easter Bunny. I don’t say this to debate really, actually I am glad for it. People oppress, torture and murder in the name of God, not Santa. That’s an important difference. When mall Santas start suicide bombing people who don’t believe in Santa, you’ll have a point. > [@newcrasher](#): > > What ideas would you like him to communicate? “Stop hurting and killing people in my name” would be nice. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > In this instance, it seems he sacrificed his son in order to remove our sin, and to show us how much he cares - which, surely, he could just tell us? Why would sacrificing your son communicate anything other than how _little_ you care, especially if you’re omnipotent ? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/32 "2005-11-28T03:19:50Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > Please cite this from the bible. I think he is talking about the promise that Jesus would come back to reign eternally before the contemporary generation died… "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.’’ (Matt. 24:34) "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.’’ (Mark 13:30) "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.’’ (Luke 21:32) However I think it has been found that the word for “generation” and “race” were mistranslated. Hopefully a greek speaker will be by shortly to verify. This may NOT have been wha the was posting about anyway. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/33 "2005-11-28T03:20:29Z")
**cosmosdan said:** > [@](#): > > Isn’t it strange how easily we give up the myths of Santa and the Easter Bunny but hold on to others. Which myths are we talking about? > [@](#): > > Through sin we are all seperated from God and there is no way back since God, being true to his nature, cannot tolerate any sin. Spiritual death{seperation from God}reigned. There was nothing any person could do to remove sin and therefore nothing that we could do to be reconciled with God. > > Jesus was the only sinless human {virgin birth helped with that} and so death had no claim on him. Even though he suffered and died, because of his being without sin, he conquered death and rose again. Now that death was conquered for all mankind,and the gulf between us and God was bridged by Jesus’ conquest of death. Through belief in Jesus sacrifice we can be washed clean of our sins and accept the gift of eternal life. That’s it in a nutshell. In this version the degree of sacrifice was not as crucial as death being conquered. The sacrifice is more that God so loved the world that he would send his beloved son to experience mortality and suffereing and death, in order to conquer death so that mankind could be saved. That’s an interesting take on things. I understand you no longer believe this. Do you remember where in the bible/how you came to this belief originally? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/34 "2005-11-28T03:26:55Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I think he is talking about the promise that Jesus would come back to reign eternally before the contemporary generation died… > > "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.’’ (Matt. 24:34) > "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.’’ (Mark 13:30) > > "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.’’ (Luke 21:32) > > However I think it has been found that the word for “generation” and “race” were mistranslated. Hopefully a greek speaker will be by shortly to verify. > > This may NOT have been wha the was posting about anyway. Well, I hope not. Because **Hi, Neighbor!** cited Paul, not Jesus. And that account says nothing to the statement that **Hi, Neighbor!** made. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/35 "2005-11-28T03:29:17Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > Please cite this from the bible. These ideas are from Romans 5:12. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/36 "2005-11-28T03:32:51Z")
You called it > [@](#): > > history’s greatest single evil . Not to trot out a tired argument, but what God were Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler serving? None… Certainly people have used religion to glorify themselves and build their own kingdoms nathed in the blood of many wars and oppressive regimes…but we cannot lay this at the feet of God. If you give a man hammer and a saw and he chooses to use them to kill and dismember rather than build, you can’t blame the tools or the person who gave them to him…or can you? > [@](#): > > I’m certainly innocent of any and all 2000 year all crimes, which are the only ones the death of Jesus could have relevance to; even then, the death of another would hardly absolve me of anything. Do you believe that God lives in linear time, each second ticking by dutifully after the one before it? I don’t believe I live in linear time. I think that it is entirely possible for my sins today to require Jesus’s blood 2000 years ago. YMMV. So you think God is just as unreal as Santa? Well Santa came to my house last year and knocked some shingles off my roof with his damn flying reigndeer. I wrote a letter to him and he said he would leave me a check for the damages this year beside the milk and cookies. Will you debate the possibility of this scenario being real? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/37 "2005-11-28T03:36:29Z")
> [@Hi](#): > > These ideas are from Romans 5:12. > [@](#): > > **Romans 5:12 NIV** > 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— Now please explain how **Romans 5:12** supports: 1. “Jesus died for the punishment of sins (death).” 2. How/where " According to Paul, if you believed in Jesus, you wouldn’t die a physical death…" and; 3. “He then modified this idea after the first generation of Christians died off and said that believers would suffer physical death, but live eternally in Heaven.” ;and lastly, 4. “So, in a nutshell, Jesus died to save us from death.” I simply don’t see any of those points in that simple [unexplained] cite. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/38 "2005-11-28T03:39:56Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > You called it . Not to trot out a tired argument, but what God were Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler serving? None… Certainly people have used religion to glorify themselves and build their own kingdoms nathed in the blood of many wars and oppressive regimes…but we cannot lay this at the feet of God. If you give a man hammer and a saw and he chooses to use them to kill and dismember rather than build, you can’t blame the tools or the person who gave them to him…or can you? They were serving the God of Communism, and it’s Prophet Marx. As I and others have said, Communism is a religion that doesn’t call itself a religion. > [@newcrasher](#): > > Do you believe that God lives in linear time, each second ticking by dutifully after the one before it? I don’t believe I live in linear time. I think that it is entirely possible for my sins today to require Jesus’s blood 2000 years ago. YMMV. God’s experience of time doesn’t matter, because _I_ live in linear time. That’s how I interact with the world, and that’s how my actions must be judged. > [@newcrasher](#): > > So you think God is just as unreal as Santa? Well Santa came to my house last year and knocked some shingles off my roof with his damn flying reigndeer. I wrote a letter to him and he said he would leave me a check for the damages this year beside the milk and cookies. Will you debate the possibility of this scenario being real? No; what would be the point ? It has no meaningful possibility of being true; neither does any religion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/39 "2005-11-28T03:44:26Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I may be wrong, but I understand it to be that supposedly Christ died for our sins. He then rose from his grave three days later. > > I’m confused as to what part of this was sacrifice. I mean, yes, he was tortured horribly, and I presume as he took everyone’s sin he went to Hell - but for three days? That really just doesn’t sound all that bad, considering he’d taken into himself the sin of everyone currently living. Can someone explain this to me? I tend to agree. The whole story is sort of confused. If you believe the Gospel of John, Jesus knew all about God’s intention to send Him here for the express purpose of being sacrificed. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939/40 "2005-11-28T03:52:33Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > They were serving the God of Communism, and it’s Prophet Marx. As I and others have said, Communism is a religion that doesn’t call itself a religion. One of Communisms greatest tenets was that religion is the opiate of the masses. You are stretching credulity here… > [@Der Trihs](#): > > God’s experience of time doesn’t matter, because _I_ live in linear time. That’s how I interact with the world, and that’s how my actions must be judged. This is the second time you have declared how you should be judged. So I guess you admit that you WILL be judged…yet the person on trial never decides how he will be tried. There are rules in place and the judge and jury will interpret them as they see fit. Do you think that Saddam Hussein’s refusal to recognize the court trying him will save him from the executioners bullet or noose? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > No; what would be the point ? It has no meaningful possibility of being true; neither does any religion. Humor me. Explain why you believe Santa did not damage my roof? Do you think he is too careful a driver? Do you doubt he will pay for his damages when he returns this year? Do you doubt his ability to fly a team of reigndeer to my roof? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dying-for-our-sins-for-three-days/332939.md?page=3)