Dying for our sins...for three days?

[cosmosdan]

@David Simmons

I think a more economical supposition is that the universe exists with certain natural features through some means we don’t yet knew. We come into the world, exist in it for a time while its features along with our actions sometimes result in bad things and sometimes good, and we then exit and are seen no more.

We shall see…or not , I guess.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

Thanks and it’s he…as in Dan

Hey! He it is.

Beyond most of us I think. I’ve just decided to continue looking and sorting and draw my own conclusions. I also try to maintain a respect for others right to do the same until their beliefs spill over into my life. A more recent conclusion of mine is that religious views and the actions that spring from those beliefs deserve no special treatment or status. Love is love, and hate is hate. Honesty and dishonesty, kindness and shelfishness. Whatever path we choose it’s the effect it has on the world at large that we can challenge.

All good points - I wish you well on this journey, and I hope you keep in mind the effects it may have on others around you.
Hmm. Let’s try a new tack. From your posts, it would seem that you don’t believe mortal expirience is anything but transistory - that mortal pain, and joy, is (while it may be highly influencing to us as mortals) completely overshadowed by “what comes after”. Thus, us being caused physical or mental anguish by the actions or non-actions of God can, sometimes, be benevolent, because these “bad things” can be something we learn from - and besides, when we die, we’ll see how petty things are compared to the afterlife. Is that what you’re saying?
If it is, i’d like to ask you to answer these:

If it was the act of a loving father, trying to teach us, that resulted in Jesus’s death, then why is it that this was only done once? Surely God could create, well, infinite amounts of sons if he chose ( I hope they wouldn’t have to share a room!), so surely he could repeat this lesson for us now? Or, say, once on the dot every century? It would be a good reminder for us, i’d imagine. I don’t think we’d have any trouble with the death of these sons, because as you have said, as they come from and go back to heaven it is unimportant whether or not they suffer.
Why is it that a benevolent god chooses (because it is a choice) to still keep us inflicted with original sin? This is something which cannot affect us in life, and as such learn from it, but will after death.

Why is that miracles are not more commonplace? It’s quite possible you think there are - many religious people would agree that miracles take place all the time. I’m referring to more of a “must be a miracle” type of thing - let’s say, a truckload of bread falls out the sky and lands on an orphanage, or homeless shelter, that needs it? Is that too because the hardship will teach a lesson to those people inside, or those around them? How about, then, one loaf of bread, miraculously appearing in the hands of a homeless person - it’s likely this will have no effect on anyone else but the guy himself, and he will have food for a couple of days. Why does this not happen?

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

All good points - I wish you well on this journey, and I hope you keep in mind the effects it may have on others around you.

Thanks. I try.

Hmm. Let’s try a new tack. From your posts, it would seem that you don’t believe mortal expirience is anything but transistory - that mortal pain, and joy, is (while it may be highly influencing to us as mortals) completely overshadowed by “what comes after”. Thus, us being caused physical or mental anguish by the actions or non-actions of God can, sometimes, be benevolent, because these “bad things” can be something we learn from - and besides, when we die, we’ll see how petty things are compared to the afterlife. Is that what you’re saying?

Somewhat but let me rephrase a couple of things.

I don’t think of it as a focusing on what comes after but rather being in the moment while seeking a fuller understanding of our nature. Pain still hurts and joy and pleasure is appreciated but trying to focus on the eternal qualities of life, namely love and truth, begins to change out perception of what is happening in the moment. It isn’t about the afterlife but rather, how do I make the most of each moment now? What matters? What doesn’t?

Have I explained the difference?

If it is, i’d like to ask you to answer these:

If it was the act of a loving father, trying to teach us, that resulted in Jesus’s death, then why is it that this was only done once? Surely God could create, well, infinite amounts of sons if he chose ( I hope they wouldn’t have to share a room!), so surely he could repeat this lesson for us now? Or, say, once on the dot every century? It would be a good reminder for us, i’d imagine. I don’t think we’d have any trouble with the death of these sons, because as you have said, as they come from and go back to heaven it is unimportant whether or not they suffer.

Thats a good question. A couple of things. In a way Jesus is still with us teaching that lesson although for the most part we stubbornly resist. There have been other teachers. Buddha taught many of the same things long before Christ. Gandhi was a pretty significant spiritual leader as well as varius others that have made their own spiritual contribution to various degrees. Jesus also spoke of the Holy Spirit {A term I use because of my Christian background} that will guide us into all truth. I beleive there is a mysterious something that connects us to each other and is the source of great insight and growth if we learn to access it and trust it. Our inner voice if you will. One of major contributions Jesus made was telling people to seek and trust this inner voice. It permeates his messege and regardless of what the official Christian church perverted, this messege has survived.

Why is it that a benevolent god chooses (because it is a choice) to still keep us inflicted with original sin? This is something which cannot affect us in life, and as such learn from it, but will after death.

You’ll have to explain this one. I’m not sure what you mean by original sin or how we are inflicted by it. I certainly don’t believe that we are all guilty because of what Adam did.

Why is that miracles are not more commonplace? It’s quite possible you think there are - many religious people would agree that miracles take place all the time. I’m referring to more of a “must be a miracle” type of thing - let’s say, a truckload of bread falls out the sky and lands on an orphanage, or homeless shelter, that needs it? Is that too because the hardship will teach a lesson to those people inside, or those around them? How about, then, one loaf of bread, miraculously appearing in the hands of a homeless person - it’s likely this will have no effect on anyone else but the guy himself, and he will have food for a couple of days. Why does this not happen?

Again, a good question. I don’t know. Do we need them? In the NT miricles were not just at the whim of God or Jesus. It also had to do with the faith and desire of the person seeking the miricle. There are groups now exploring the effect of our attitudes and emotions or even our faith, on our physical health. Rather than the miricle of bread falling from the shy to feed the needy I’d rather see our hearts turned so these needs were met.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

Somewhat but let me rephrase a couple of things.

I don’t think of it as a focusing on what comes after but rather being in the moment while seeking a fuller understanding of our nature. Pain still hurts and joy and pleasure is appreciated but trying to focus on the eternal qualities of life, namely love and truth, begins to change out perception of what is happening in the moment. It isn’t about the afterlife but rather, how do I make the most of each moment now? What matters? What doesn’t?

Have I explained the difference?

I think I get what you mean. You’re saying that, while things will still effect us, we have to look at the bigger picture - while we may have pain right now, we will get out of it eventually, so don’t wallow. Is that it?

Thats a good question. A couple of things. In a way Jesus is still with us teaching that lesson although for the most part we stubbornly resist.

In a way? How do you mean? He’s not still walking around, is he? Crap. I’d better buy a cross.

There have been other teachers. Buddha taught many of the same things long before Christ. Gandhi was a pretty significant spiritual leader as well as varius others that have made their own spiritual contribution to various degrees.

True. But while there have been many, very significant teachers, they still lack direct divine influence. Christ (as you believe) was the actual son of God - and he could (and did do) miracles. That’s what i’m talking about, here - more sons are not needed because we need reminding what the faith is about, but that the faith exists at all. Even the most eloquent, witty, and inspired teacher cannot sway all people - a man (hey, or woman - how about a daughter of god for a change?) walking around doing miracles would pretty much prove that a deity exists.

Jesus also spoke of the Holy Spirit {A term I use because of my Christian background} that will guide us into all truth. I beleive there is a mysterious something that connects us to each other and is the source of great insight and growth if we learn to access it and trust it. Our inner voice if you will. One of major contributions Jesus made was telling people to seek and trust this inner voice. It permeates his messege and regardless of what the official Christian church perverted, this messege has survived.

I have a big problem with this. No offense to you, but schizophrenics may hear voices, and feel the prescence of a deity. Doesn’t mean they’re right. I’m not saying you’re insane, all I mean is…it’s very easy for us to imagine these things, or to get them wrong. And who’s to say that this inner voice, if it does exist, has anything to do with God? Could just be our innate morality - which would certainly explain why most religious people disagree with each other on the nature of god (or gods).

You’ll have to explain this one. I’m not sure what you mean by original sin or how we are inflicted by it. I certainly don’t believe that we are all guilty because of what Adam did.

Ok. I’ve just heard it brought up by a few christian posters - I believe the concept is that, because of Adam and Eve’s choice, when they were flung from the garden of eden they were “infected” with original sin, which we, as their descendants, carry with us today. This means that we’re all, from birth, evil. At least, that’s the picture I get - could a christian who believes this or knows about it correct me?

Again, a good question. I don’t know. Do we need them?

Well, I imagine a starving child might. But according to your beliefs, it would then die and go to heaven/be with god, so I suppose from your point of view it might not be that bad. Hmm. Ok, how about this - a giant flaming meteor is going to crash into the earth and wipe us all out. I think we’d agree that it’d be necessary for God to intervene, if he wants us to be alive and for the human race not to die out - do you think he’d intervene then? Would you want him to?

In the NT miricles were not just at the whim of God or Jesus. It also had to do with the faith and desire of the person seeking the miricle.

Ah, but not due to directly - It’s not a case of “we have faith, so God is able to produce this miracle” (or at least I don’t think you’re arguing that) but “We have faith, so God chooses to reward us with this miracle”.

Either way, seems pretty unjust - i’m sure a lot of bad people have had absolute faith in what they do and in God, and i’d really rather they didn’t get a miracle, thanks.

There are groups now exploring the effect of our attitudes and emotions or even our faith, on our physical health.

There are, but I don’t think they’ve found any significant results yet. Again, if someone knows better and can cite a study, please feel free to prove me wrong.

Oh, btw, i’m fully in favour of doing these studies. I’m agnostic, so it seems reasonable to me that studies are done to discover whether prayer works - if done correctly, we could (potentially) find a new way to save lives, which is always good. And if we find nothing, hey, at least we tried.

Rather than the miricle of bread falling from the shy to feed the needy I’d rather see our hearts turned so these needs were met.

I hope you meant sky, there…Unless God’s feeling a bit selfconscious these days

Inevitably, people’s hearts will not all be turned on an issue - even with the earthquakes and tsunami in the asian region recently, or the hurricaine problems over your side of the pond, there’s going to be people who won’t help, or send money/aid etc. Does this mean that God should just give up? Surely he could let us do all we will do, and then add his own help on top of that?

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

I think I get what you mean. You’re saying that, while things will still effect us, we have to look at the bigger picture - while we may have pain right now, we will get out of it eventually, so don’t wallow. Is that it?

Close but thats not the main point.
Let me put it this way, Rather than hints at any religious belief I’ll say I believe certain things are consitantly positive {love and truth} while somewhat elusive. So regardless of what life brings we try to focus on the things that return positive results. I’m not minimizing the suffereing of others, but have you known or heard of someone with tremndous burdons who retains a very positive outlook. Don’t we usually admire that type. The other thing is useing whatever struggle that comes along toward something positive. Remember the movie “Regarding Henry” A rich successful lawyer gets shot in the head and it turns out it was the best thing for him and his family. There are real life examples as well.

In a way? How do you mean? He’s not still walking around, is he? Crap. I’d better buy a cross.

We are still studying his words and lessons and shareing them with others.

True. But while there have been many, very significant teachers, they still lack direct divine influence. Christ (as you believe) was the actual son of God - and he could (and did do) miracles. That’s what i’m talking about, here - more sons are not needed because we need reminding what the faith is about, but that the faith exists at all. Even the most eloquent, witty, and inspired teacher cannot sway all people - a man (hey, or woman - how about a daughter of god for a change?) walking around doing miracles would pretty much prove that a deity exists.

I believe we are all children of God and Christ was just a prime example of what that means. Proof that a deity exists isn’t the goal.

I have a big problem with this. No offense to you, but schizophrenics may hear voices, and feel the prescence of a deity. Doesn’t mean they’re right. I’m not saying you’re insane, all I mean is…it’s very easy for us to imagine these things, or to get them wrong. And who’s to say that this inner voice, if it does exist, has anything to do with God? Could just be our innate morality - which would certainly explain why most religious people disagree with each other on the nature of god (or gods).

No offense taken. I am aware of how strange it can sound to some. We all make choices based on something internal. Call it your highest conscience or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Even people who believe in the inner voice make bad judgenment calls sometimes and are influenced by their own wants. It takes practice. In a book about Gandhi he describes an incident in prison where he hears the voice of God tell him how to handle a certain situation. He says. “I’ll never try to convince anyone else that I heard the voice of God. They can call it whatever they like. Yet, I will always be convinced that’s what I heard”

Holy Spirit, God, and inner voice, can all be metaphors for things we have yet to understand. I don’t care much about the semantics. Jesus said we can tell if we are led by the spirit of God by actions. Kindness, love, compassion, honesty.
For me it’s about dealing with the day to day and asking myself. Am I being honest with myself and others? Am I acting in according to love and compassion. If I catch myself with lingering anger and resentment about something I want to get rid of it because it’s negative energy. I want my actions and my overall spirit to be positive to those around me. The inner voice is a belief that within me is a place of knowing and peace that helps give me direction.

Ok. I’ve just heard it brought up by a few christian posters - I believe the concept is that, because of Adam and Eve’s choice, when they were flung from the garden of eden they were “infected” with original sin, which we, as their descendants, carry with us today. This means that we’re all, from birth, evil. At least, that’s the picture I get - could a christian who believes this or knows about it correct me?

I am somewhat familar with it. Even in my days as a Christian I never believed it.

Well, I imagine a starving child might. But according to your beliefs, it would then die and go to heaven/be with god, so I suppose from your point of view it might not be that bad. Hmm. Ok, how about this - a giant flaming meteor is going to crash into the earth and wipe us all out. I think we’d agree that it’d be necessary for God to intervene, if he wants us to be alive and for the human race not to die out - do you think he’d intervene then? Would you want him to?

You’re describing God as a seperate controling deity and I don’t believe in God in that way. I believe we are connected to God and to each other and we are co creators of our lives. It’s easy to see that many of the problems we have as a society and as individuals are of our own making and becasue of our own choices. Others, such as natural disasters, are harder to comprehend and explain. I do believe that all things do work to help us wake up, based on our choices in dealing with it.

Ah, but not due to directly - It’s not a case of “we have faith, so God is able to produce this miracle” (or at least I don’t think you’re arguing that) but “We have faith, so God chooses to reward us with this miracle”.

Either way, seems pretty unjust - i’m sure a lot of bad people have had absolute faith in what they do and in God, and i’d really rather they didn’t get a miracle, thanks.

I’ll have to look at that. If they truly have faith in God {not lip service but life changing faith} then they can’t be bad people.

There are, but I don’t think they’ve found any significant results yet. Again, if someone knows better and can cite a study, please feel free to prove me wrong.

Oh, btw, i’m fully in favour of doing these studies. I’m agnostic, so it seems reasonable to me that studies are done to discover whether prayer works - if done correctly, we could (potentially) find a new way to save lives, which is always good. And if we find nothing, hey, at least we tried.

Try this
There’s no doubt that a positive peaceful and hopeful attitude can imporve healing.

Inevitably, people’s hearts will not all be turned on an issue - even with the earthquakes and tsunami in the asian region recently, or the hurricaine problems over your side of the pond, there’s going to be people who won’t help, or send money/aid etc. Does this mean that God should just give up? Surely he could let us do all we will do, and then add his own help on top of that?

I think they will be turned but it’s a matter of when. We often live in denial of the long term results of our selfish choices. Eventually that catches up with us and we are forced to deal with it. Karma I suppose. Gandhi said “You must be the change you hope to see in the world” There’s a scene in the old movie “Oh God” where John Denver asks God why do you allow all this bad stuff to happen? God answers, “Why do you allow it?” We are tied together beyond any untieing but we have unique control over ourselves as individuals and the choices we make. If we strive to improve that then we must be improving the world we are a part of.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

Close but thats not the main point.
Let me put it this way, Rather than hints at any religious belief I’ll say I believe certain things are consitantly positive {love and truth} while somewhat elusive. So regardless of what life brings we try to focus on the things that return positive results. I’m not minimizing the suffereing of others, but have you known or heard of someone with tremndous burdons who retains a very positive outlook. Don’t we usually admire that type. The other thing is useing whatever struggle that comes along toward something positive. Remember the movie “Regarding Henry” A rich successful lawyer gets shot in the head and it turns out it was the best thing for him and his family. There are real life examples as well.

All good points.

We are still studying his words and lessons and shareing them with others.

No, Christians are. Well, Christians are and attributing them to God - I imagine, from your point of view, others who study the lessons but don’t believe in God, or believe in another religious system, are “actually” following God without knowing.

I believe we are all children of God and Christ was just a prime example of what that means. Proof that a deity exists isn’t the goal.

Right. Being morally good is the goal. However, it would be a lot easier to do that if we knew for certain that someone upstairs existed. I’m not saying “God wants us to know he exists, so he should come down here”, i’m saying “God wants us to believe in him and his ways; well, prove you exist, first”.

No offense taken. I am aware of how strange it can sound to some. We all make choices based on something internal. Call it your highest conscience or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Even people who believe in the inner voice make bad judgenment calls sometimes and are influenced by their own wants. It takes practice. In a book about Gandhi he describes an incident in prison where he hears the voice of God tell him how to handle a certain situation. He says. “I’ll never try to convince anyone else that I heard the voice of God. They can call it whatever they like. Yet, I will always be convinced that’s what I heard”

I can say the same thing, only substituting “voice of God” with “inner conscience”. I really don’t think we’re going to be able to see eye to eye on this issue, seeing as we both think the other is hearing what we ourselves think.

Holy Spirit, God, and inner voice, can all be metaphors for things we have yet to understand. I don’t care much about the semantics. Jesus said we can tell if we are led by the spirit of God by actions. Kindness, love, compassion, honesty.
For me it’s about dealing with the day to day and asking myself. Am I being honest with myself and others? Am I acting in according to love and compassion. If I catch myself with lingering anger and resentment about something I want to get rid of it because it’s negative energy. I want my actions and my overall spirit to be positive to those around me. The inner voice is a belief that within me is a place of knowing and peace that helps give me direction.

Again, very nice, but could be just an inner conscience that has nothing to do with God.

I am somewhat familar with it. Even in my days as a Christian I never believed it.

It seems pretty strange to me, too, and i’ve never been a Christian

You’re describing God as a seperate controling deity and I don’t believe in God in that way.

But he is. God is omnipotent, therefore he can act that way if he so chooses. If God were to not stop the flaming meteoric death, even though he has the power to do so, then I would say he was not benevolent. The only reason he would have for not doing so is that he does not believe in interfering directly - well, I hope he’s had fun with the human race, because we’re gone.

I believe we are connected to God and to each other and we are co creators of our lives. It’s easy to see that many of the problems we have as a society and as individuals are of our own making and becasue of our own choices. Others, such as natural disasters, are harder to comprehend and explain. I do believe that all things do work to help us wake up, based on our choices in dealing with it.

Possibly. If God exists, then this is a good point. I certainly agree that a lot of our problems are of our own making, anyway.

I’ll have to look at that. If they truly have faith in God {not lip service but life changing faith} then they can’t be bad people.

Ouch. Yes, yes, they can. A person can believe fully in God and still be a bad person. Let’s look at it like this; You believe in the words of Jesus - that his teachings are a way to base your life around. Other religious people base their ideas around other points; the bible, maybe, other religious texts, the words of prophets, an inner belief system. These all state different, and often contradicting ideals and notions. What is bad under one system, may be good under another. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to say that a bad person may have true faith in God - unless you’re claiming that your way is the only true path?

Let me use another example - you yourself. Are you saying that, since you came into your beliefs, you have never done anything bad? I realise your point is that a “true” believer cannot be a bad person, rather than being a good person who is bad sometimes, but look at it like this; if you, a “true” believer, can commit wrong acts at times, how easy would it be for a similar person to commit wrong acts more than they do good? I would say very easily.

Try this
There’s no doubt that a positive peaceful and hopeful attitude can imporve healing.

Wow, this site seems very, ah, cultish. But i’d agree with you on your point - getting worked up about something isn’t likely to aid the healing process, whether it’s just down to biological reasons or a higher power.

I think they will be turned but it’s a matter of when.

I don’t. I believe there are some people who will be consistently selfish throughout their lives.

We often live in denial of the long term results of our selfish choices. Eventually that catches up with us and we are forced to deal with it. Karma I suppose.

Not always. Sometimes we make selfish choices which don’t catch up to us at all - likewise, we can make altruistic choices which end up having a bad result for us. If there is a God, though, then your point is valid, as we get judged after life.

Gandhi said “You must be the change you hope to see in the world”

A good point, but, unlike an omnipotent deity, we cannot change everything. If, as one, the entire population of the world decided they would be good, well, yes, then many things are possible. Wouldn’t stop us being smited by a giant flaming meteor, but many things would become better for people.

The problem lies in the fact that people have different ideas of what is good. For example, a person living by that quote who thinks abortion is bad could be motivated to picketing and working against abortion clinics, and bring about the change they want. Equally, a person who is pro-choice may picket for and work to enable abortion clinics. One of these people is wrong - i’m not going to get into which one, but one of these people must be wrong. So simply saying “You must change the world” is not inevitably going to lead to moral rightness - we all have a diferent idea of what that is.

There’s a scene in the old movie “Oh God” where John Denver asks God why do you allow all this bad stuff to happen? God answers, “Why do you allow it?”

So, because we don’t help ourselves, God doesn’t have to? That seems kind of petty on his part.

Let’s use your argument from before - sometimes bad things happening are actually good, because we learn a lesson from them. Could it not be argued, then, that all bad done on earth follows the same idea? What point, then, is there for us to change our ways if the bad we do is good anyway?

And if this isn’t the case, that bad things are sometimes just that, bad, then why doesn’t God put a stop to those things? Your argument has been that God does not always aid us, because we will learn lessons - what if there is no lesson to learn? Why does God not help us in this instance? The flaming meteor has no lesson that can be learned from it - Should God not stop it?

We are tied together beyond any untieing but we have unique control over ourselves as individuals and the choices we make. If we strive to improve that then we must be improving the world we are a part of.

Possibly. I’m sure that members of the KKK believed they were improving themselves, and the world. Same thing for (and I hate to invoke Godwin’s Law) Hitler. They certainly didn’t improve the world we are a part of. The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what is “good” and what is “bad” - if we are told “Go, improve yourselves!”, everyone’s going to do so differently. Not all of us, or even most, will improve the world.

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

No, Christians are. Well, Christians are and attributing them to God - I imagine, from your point of view, others who study the lessons but don’t believe in God, or believe in another religious system, are “actually” following God without knowing.

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet. Gandhi, a hindu, revered Jesus and was influenced by his teachings, and went on to influence others. Even those that think of him as merely a good man have been influenced by his words. I, for example am not a Christian but revere his teachings. Add that to millions of Christians worldwide. His influence is immense.
You raise a good point. I don’t believe there is any ego in Jesus’ teachings, but rather he was more concerned about actual behavior and the spirit behind those actions. So, if a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, Atheist, whatever, truly loves and serves his fellow man with a sincere heart, they are doing exactly what Jesus said mattered.
There’s a parable in the Bible where Jesus says “Whatever you did unto the least of these you do unto me.” Did you visit me in prison? Did you feed me when I was hungry? Comfort me when I was sick?
One group says "But Lord we did all these really cool things** in your name **
and Jesus responds “Depart, you never knew me”
The other group doesn’t even know they were doing good things to Jesus. They ask, “When did we see you in prison? When we feed you?” Why didn’t they know? IMHO it’s because they weren’t Christians. This is one of clearest passages in which Jesus says, “It’s about behavior, not lip service” yet Christians will distort and deny this passage when asked directly.

Right. Being morally good is the goal. However, it would be a lot easier to do that if we knew for certain that someone upstairs existed. I’m not saying “God wants us to know he exists, so he should come down here”, i’m saying “God wants us to believe in him and his ways; well, prove you exist, first”.

It’s not just being morally good. It’s striving to find your boundaries of what morally good is. There’s a level which we as average humans say what qualifies as a good person or how much we expect of ourselves. Jesus teaches, keep striving to raise the bar.
Here’s a thought. Some people try to “be good” because they want to please God or insure their eternal reward or whatever. How much better to strive to serve others with no thought of a reward from God but simply because you sense it’s the right thing to do. Isn’t that also what Jesus taught? Let your actions be real and sincere. If all you want is to serve your own and others image of what christianity is then that’s what you get. An image.

I can say the same thing, only substituting “voice of God” with “inner conscience”. I really don’t think we’re going to be able to see eye to eye on this issue, seeing as we both think the other is hearing what we ourselves think.

What I’m saying is semantics don’t matter. If I say Holy Spirit and you say Inner Conscience it doesn’t matter at all.

Again, very nice, but could be just an inner conscience that has nothing to do with God.

Unless our inner conscience is an expression of God’s voice.
The reason I put it that way is because of some profound personal experiences and because of my creative side having that sense of connection to something more than just myself. Again, I’m not hung up on semantics.

But he is. God is omnipotent, therefore he can act that way if he so chooses. If God were to not stop the flaming meteoric death, even though he has the power to do so, then I would say he was not benevolent. The only reason he would have for not doing so is that he does not believe in interfering directly - well, I hope he’s had fun with the human race, because we’re gone.

If we all lost our physical lives only to live on as spirits how non benevolent would that be? The idea is that the physical was always intended to be tempoary.
It’s not that we are disobedient children but more like a part of God in truth even while we don’t acknowledge it. Whatever happens, is part of what we are creating with God, not simply God acting upon us or not.

Ouch. Yes, yes, they can. A person can believe fully in God and still be a bad person. Let’s look at it like this; You believe in the words of Jesus - that his teachings are a way to base your life around. Other religious people base their ideas around other points; the bible, maybe, other religious texts, the words of prophets, an inner belief system. These all state different, and often contradicting ideals and notions. What is bad under one system, may be good under another. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to say that a bad person may have true faith in God - unless you’re claiming that your way is the only true path?

No rather that all true paths eventually lead to the same place. I do recant though. In the Bible it says that mere belief is not enough

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

I guess what I was thinking was not only believeing but being in line with the spirit of God and allowing that inner spirit to move and motivate us. The more in tune we are with that part of us and surrender to it’s lead the more difficult it will become to be a bad person.

Sometimes we act nice but it’s a sort of pretense. When we actually become that loving person rather than act loving we have allowed that inner spirit to transform us.

Let me use another example - you yourself. Are you saying that, since you came into your beliefs, you have never done anything bad? I realise your point is that a “true” believer cannot be a bad person, rather than being a good person who is bad sometimes, but look at it like this; if you, a “true” believer, can commit wrong acts at times, how easy would it be for a similar person to commit wrong acts more than they do good? I would say very easily.

It depends on where we started and how we handle our growth. We are unique personnalities with different strengths and weaknesses. We live in a cluture that doesn’t teach consistant values. We have different ideas of what we think is right, but as we strive to figure it all out {if and when we strive} we will come to the same conclusions. Growth is gradual and we will have our slip ups but the end result is growth when growth becomes our goal.

Wow, this site seems very, ah, cultish. But i’d agree with you on your point - getting worked up about something isn’t likely to aid the healing process, whether it’s just down to biological reasons or a higher power.

It’s a principle that exists in many other areas. People who practice the martial arts are taught to visualize feats you and I would find impossible. We’re taught to visualize our goals in order to achieve them. These are forms of faith.

I don’t. I believe there are some people who will be consistently selfish throughout their lives.

Throughout this life perhaps. Maybe a few others as well, but eventually we figure it out. Have you ever seen Ground Hog Day with Bill Murray or Defending Your Life with Meryl Streep and Albert Brooks. Both great movies on the subject.

Not always. Sometimes we make selfish choices which don’t catch up to us at all - likewise, we can make altruistic choices which end up having a bad result for us. If there is a God, though, then your point is valid, as we get judged after life.

I don’t agree. If you send negative energy out into the world it will come back to you in some way, even if we don’t see it right away. It also has to do with what we choose to pursue. Jesus describes priests praying to be recognized as holy by the people and says “They have their reward” meaning they will get just what they want. Not meaningful growth but shallow recognition. It’s also interesting to note that just doing what appears to be a good deed isn’t always good. We have to be smart and in tune with whats going on. People who enable others in a negative way really think they are helping but there’s some other motivation going on beneath the surface. It’s all part of the learning process.

A good point, but, unlike an omnipotent deity, we cannot change everything. If, as one, the entire population of the world decided they would be good, well, yes, then many things are possible. Wouldn’t stop us being smited by a giant flaming meteor, but many things would become better for people.

Again, if the physical is only meant to be temporary then once we all became good we might say “Hey, no point hanging out here anymore.”

The fact is we do change everything in some small way. Postive energy in thoughts and deeds does effect the world we live in. Ripples in a pond. Our deeds are the stones we throw in.

The problem lies in the fact that people have different ideas of what is good. For example, a person living by that quote who thinks abortion is bad could be motivated to picketing and working against abortion clinics, and bring about the change they want. Equally, a person who is pro-choice may picket for and work to enable abortion clinics. One of these people is wrong - i’m not going to get into which one, but one of these people must be wrong. So simply saying “You must change the world” is not inevitably going to lead to moral rightness - we all have a diferent idea of what that is.

I have an idea that being true to yourself is the path. Answer to that inner conscience you spoke of and be totally honest with yourself. {That’s the simplified version} One experience leads to another which leads to growth. It might lead an anti abortionist to stop picketting and instead offer emotional and financial support to pregnant women who were thinking of abortion. Now his negative energy has turned to positive while being true to his beliefs. It’s not only doing what you believe to be right but being willing to see what effect your choice has on others. The process isn’t instant or easy. But it will work.

So, because we don’t help ourselves, God doesn’t have to? That seems kind of petty on his part.

No, it’s because we are a part of God and when we help ourselves he is helping us. Remember the Gandhi quote.

Let’s use your argument from before - sometimes bad things happening are actually good, because we learn a lesson from them. Could it not be argued, then, that all bad done on earth follows the same idea? What point, then, is there for us to change our ways if the bad we do is good anyway?

Being true to yourself is a must. If the bad thing that happens changes your mind about what is true, or what is best, and you deny it for whatever reason , then you have seen the sgnpost and ignored it’s direction. In that case the lesson will repeat itself until learned.

And if this isn’t the case, that bad things are sometimes just that, bad, then why doesn’t God put a stop to those things? Your argument has been that God does not always aid us, because we will learn lessons - what if there is no lesson to learn? Why does God not help us in this instance? The flaming meteor has no lesson that can be learned from it - Should God not stop it?

Remember, we are cocreators of our own loves. Nothing is by accident or incidental.

Possibly. I’m sure that members of the KKK believed they were improving themselves, and the world. Same thing for (and I hate to invoke Godwin’s Law) Hitler. They certainly didn’t improve the world we are a part of. The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what is “good” and what is “bad” - if we are told “Go, improve yourselves!”, everyone’s going to do so differently. Not all of us, or even most, will improve the world.

Our differing choices create interaction which creates the experience which parcipitates learning. You have probably guessed I believe in reincarnation.
In Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl he speaks of being in a Nazi concentration camp and realizing he was more free than his guards. Gandhi was said to have thanked a guard when given rags to wear in prison. He realized that the opportunuity to learn something from the experience was more important than the hardship.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

There’s a parable in the Bible where Jesus says “Whatever you did unto the least of these you do unto me.” Did you visit me in prison? Did you feed me when I was hungry? Comfort me when I was sick?
One group says "But Lord we did all these really cool things** in your name **
and Jesus responds “Depart, you never knew me”
The other group doesn’t even know they were doing good things to Jesus. They ask, “When did we see you in prison? When we feed you?” Why didn’t they know? IMHO it’s because they weren’t Christians. This is one of clearest passages in which Jesus says, “It’s about behavior, not lip service” yet Christians will distort and deny this passage when asked directly.

Well, you’re a christian. Are you distorting and denying?

It’s not just being morally good. It’s striving to find your boundaries of what morally good is. There’s a level which we as average humans say what qualifies as a good person or how much we expect of ourselves. Jesus teaches, keep striving to raise the bar.

Alright, sounds good to me - benevolent, even.

Here’s a thought. Some people try to “be good” because they want to please God or insure their eternal reward or whatever. How much better to strive to serve others with no thought of a reward from God but simply because you sense it’s the right thing to do. Isn’t that also what Jesus taught? Let your actions be real and sincere. If all you want is to serve your own and others image of what christianity is then that’s what you get. An image.

Again, sounds good. If you have no reason at all for being good other than your own choice, that does seem worthy of reward by him upstairs.

What I’m saying is semantics don’t matter. If I say Holy Spirit and you say Inner Conscience it doesn’t matter at all.

Quite so. You are just as certain that it is God as I am that it is not. So yes, it’s semantics both ways.

Unless our inner conscience is an expression of God’s voice.
The reason I put it that way is because of some profound personal experiences and because of my creative side having that sense of connection to something more than just myself. Again, I’m not hung up on semantics.

Ok.

If we all lost our physical lives only to live on as spirits how non benevolent would that be? The idea is that the physical was always intended to be tempoary.

Then why is it wrong to kill someone? Or to steal from them? Life is just temporary, so what does it matter if do these things - once we die, it’s all over anyway.

My point with the big flaming meteor was that a) everyone would die, probably painfully, and b) the human race would become extinct. Surely, if God (or Jesus) wants us to continually strive to be better people, we need to be alive to do so? Once we’re dead and either in the afterlife or just plain dead we can’t anymore.

It’s not that we are disobedient children but more like a part of God in truth even while we don’t acknowledge it. Whatever happens, is part of what we are creating with God, not simply God acting upon us or not.

If we are a part of God, then God is not benevolent, because we are not always. Likewise, we are not always just. Think of it as cogs in a machine - if one cog is broken, the whole machine may or not work, or just parts of it.

No rather that all true paths eventually lead to the same place. I do recant though. In the Bible it says that mere belief is not enough

We still need to know whether we are on the true path or not. And having a visible, actual, definitive, final sign would be very useful - just Jesus maybe hopping on down and saying, “Hey, good work, keep it up!” or a “You know, I really don’t approve of this - you might want to think about changing your ways, here”.

I guess what I was thinking was not only believeing but being in line with the spirit of God and allowing that inner spirit to move and motivate us. The more in tune we are with that part of us and surrender to it’s lead the more difficult it will become to be a bad person.

Problem being that if that inner voice is not God, then it is just a part of ourselves. And, as a part of ourselves, it can be wrong. Thus listening to it is going to give different advice to everyone - a serial killer can question himself and his inner voice tell him yes, he’s doing good, well done, keep going.

Sometimes we act nice but it’s a sort of pretense. When we actually become that loving person rather than act loving we have allowed that inner spirit to transform us.

So you admit that sometimes a “true” believer can behave badly, and do bad things?

It depends on where we started and how we handle our growth. We are unique personnalities with different strengths and weaknesses. We live in a cluture that doesn’t teach consistant values. We have different ideas of what we think is right, but as we strive to figure it all out {if and when we strive} we will come to the same conclusions. Growth is gradual and we will have our slip ups but the end result is growth when growth becomes our goal.

We will not come to the same conclusions - surely the whole fact that we’re debating proves that to you? You and me have very different belief systems, but you would claim that, in the end, we will be in agreement? I admit, there are many things you’ve said I agree with, and would embrace; however, these parts have nothing to do with the existence of a God.

Like i’ve said before, a bad person can strive to be better and still continue to be bad - You would seem to dismiss any bad person as wanting to strive at all, which, honestly, is BS. Why don’t bad people strive?

t’s a principle that exists in many other areas. People who practice the martial arts are taught to visualize feats you and I would find impossible. We’re taught to visualize our goals in order to achieve them. These are forms of faith.

They are, yes. I also believe that if I were in trouble, my family would try to help me - I have faith in them, and trust. And vice-versa, too; I would hope they have faith in me.

Throughout this life perhaps. Maybe a few others as well, but eventually we figure it out. Have you ever seen Ground Hog Day with Bill Murray or Defending Your Life with Meryl Streep and Albert Brooks. Both great movies on the subject.

Uh, yes…but they are films, as opposed to real life. Unless, of course, you’re suggesting God makes us relive days over and over again to teach us a lesson - because no, he wouldn’t make such a direct influence on us that proves he exists. In fact, he’s only done such a direct thing once - with Jesus. How about he does it again?

I don’t agree. If you send negative energy out into the world it will come back to you in some way, even if we don’t see it right away.

Ok, let me give you an example. Say I fly to Australia, take 1 dollar from a random person’s wallet, and fly back. Show me how this negative “energy” will come back to me, please.

It also has to do with what we choose to pursue. Jesus describes priests praying to be recognized as holy by the people and says “They have their reward” meaning they will get just what they want. Not meaningful growth but shallow recognition. It’s also interesting to note that just doing what appears to be a good deed isn’t always good. We have to be smart and in tune with whats going on. People who enable others in a negative way really think they are helping but there’s some other motivation going on beneath the surface. It’s all part of the learning process.

I’d agree. Just giving an addict another hit would be doing a good deed to help them out, but in the long run it’s only going to hurt them.

Again, if the physical is only meant to be temporary then once we all became good we might say “Hey, no point hanging out here anymore.”

But surely heaven is a place where we are all good? So what’s the point hanging out there?

The fact is we do change everything in some small way. Postive energy in thoughts and deeds does effect the world we live in. Ripples in a pond. Our deeds are the stones we throw in.

I agree with this to some extent, but not all of it. Sometimes your deeds can have a proporionally smaller or larger effect, or even none at all.

I have an idea that being true to yourself is the path. Answer to that inner conscience you spoke of and be totally honest with yourself. {That’s the simplified version}

Well, that’s the KKK into heaven, then.

One experience leads to another which leads to growth. It might lead an anti abortionist to stop picketting and instead offer emotional and financial support to pregnant women who were thinking of abortion. Now his negative energy has turned to positive while being true to his beliefs. It’s not only doing what you believe to be right but being willing to see what effect your choice has on others. The process isn’t instant or easy. But it will work.

A good idea. Has no bearing on God’s existence, though.

No, it’s because we are a part of God and when we help ourselves he is helping us. Remember the Gandhi quote.

Wow, so God’s actively aiding bad people now? What a nice guy.

Being true to yourself is a must. If the bad thing that happens changes your mind about what is true, or what is best, and you deny it for whatever reason , then you have seen the sgnpost and ignored it’s direction. In that case the lesson will repeat itself until learned.

It might not. Again, this hinges on the existence of God, which I don’t believe in. Maybe he should come down here and prove it? That’d be nice.

Remember, we are cocreators of our own loves. Nothing is by accident or incidental.

Nothing is by accident? Ever? There are never any accidents? Seriously?

Our differing choices create interaction which creates the experience which parcipitates learning. You have probably guessed I believe in reincarnation.

Actually, no. That’s interesting. 'Course, in the big flaming meteor example, we’d have nowhere to reincarnate to, so I guess we all end up somewhere in the end?

In Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl he speaks of being in a Nazi concentration camp and realizing he was more free than his guards.

Riiiiight. I’m really looking forward the explanation of this one. Do you mean that, while he was spiritually free, the guards were trapped in their own rigid thinking? While i’m sure his expirience was horrible, how does he know (and what gives him the right) to be able to diagnose the guards in this way? It’s quite possible that some were happy to do what they did. Likewise, many may not have.

Gandhi was said to have thanked a guard when given rags to wear in prison. He realized that the opportunuity to learn something from the experience was more important than the hardship.

I wouldn’t say more important. Definetly important, though, to our lives, as learning more will help us in the future. Sometimes, though, we cannot learn a lesson from something - and I don’t mean “Ahh, we do not learn the lesson until we have studied ourselves” I mean sometimes there is no lesson to learn. Life is not like a family sitcom.

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

Well, you’re a christian. Are you distorting and denying?

Um… No I’m not. I used to be but although I revere the teachings of Christ I no longer have enough in common with main stream Chrsitians to want that description. I know many Christians who are really fine people but the specifics of our belierfs are very different. I don’t think any one religion has discovered all the answers. They are all reflections of man’s search for truth. Along that journey we all distort and deny to some extent.

Then why is it wrong to kill someone? Or to steal from them? Life is just temporary, so what does it matter if do these things - once we die, it’s all over anyway.

It is our internal condition that matters. Killing someone in self defense is not the same as calculated murder. Stealing a loaf of bread to survive is not the same stealing material things for money. The physical is temporary but we live in the moment, and we have choices in this moment. Those choices have consequences for other moments. My body may be temporary but my spirit is not. What do I choose in this moment? Hopefully to be a positive influence on the world around me. We don’t revere the lives of others and our connection to them by casually killing their tempoary physical body.

My point with the big flaming meteor was that a) everyone would die, probably painfully, and b) the human race would become extinct. Surely, if God (or Jesus) wants us to continually strive to be better people, we need to be alive to do so? Once we’re dead and either in the afterlife or just plain dead we can’t anymore.

I got that. Too me it’s an example that doesn’t say anything. Too many what ifs
I could say that could only happen if it was God’s plan anyway, like the supposed flood for Noah, or, since I believe in reincarnation, we might start over on someother world.

If we are a part of God, then God is not benevolent, because we are not always. Likewise, we are not always just. Think of it as cogs in a machine - if one cog is broken, the whole machine may or not work, or just parts of it.

I can see how it appears that way. Our injustice and lack of benevolance comes from not seeing ourselves as spiritual beings and understanding what that means. It comes from believeing these physical bodies is our prime identity and we are not connected. Once we realize our connection and then strive to understand and live accordingly {as Jesus did} injustice passes away.

We still need to know whether we are on the true path or not. And having a visible, actual, definitive, final sign would be very useful - just Jesus maybe hopping on down and saying, “Hey, good work, keep it up!” or a “You know, I really don’t approve of this - you might want to think about changing your ways, here”.

In Buddhism there’s a comparision to the spokes of a wheel. Spokes can be completely opposite each other but they are connected at the rim and the hub. Even the opposite spokes {paths} are still true.

Problem being that if that inner voice is not God, then it is just a part of ourselves. And, as a part of ourselves, it can be wrong. Thus listening to it is going to give different advice to everyone - a serial killer can question himself and his inner voice tell him yes, he’s doing good, well done, keep going.

Through practice we can learn to seperate the voice of our own desires from the true inner voice. First we have to really want to do that. One huge problem is it means being willing to leave certain things behind in order to follow that voice.
It isn’t easy. I can look back and see times when I didn’t listen because of what I wanted so I justified and rationalized, only later to admit I didn’t listen. We have to make that a priority over what others want from us. Social pressures. Our own sense of worth and identity. For me it’s discerning love and truth from fear and dishonesty. Then there’s the fine tuning of how best to handle any given situation while maintaining my goals.

So you admit that sometimes a “true” believer can behave badly, and do bad things?

I’d say yes. What I meant was not just belief but someone who is tuned in and following that voice consistantly can’t easily act against their nature. Someone who is only acting nice may reveal their inner selves when confronted with a certain situation. Someone who has become loving and less judgemental will handle a tough situation in a different way. I saw my Dad transformed fairly late in life. He was able to let go of old anger and resentment and become a kinder gentler more patient man. Dickens would have been proud. Even then while on the journey we can have our slip ups It’s still nice to see people change and make progress.

We will not come to the same conclusions - surely the whole fact that we’re debating proves that to you? You and me have very different belief systems, but you would claim that, in the end, we will be in agreement? I admit, there are many things you’ve said I agree with, and would embrace; however, these parts have nothing to do with the existence of a God.

There’s a huge difference between what we know, what we think may be true, and what we believe is true. Our lives are a mix of these things. As in my wheel example. A guy may grow up in a Muslim household and culture but if his goal is to love and discover the truth then he will be a spoke in the wheel and get to the same hub I get to although our beliefs are far apart at the begining of our journey. The closer we get to the hub the closer our beliefs will be. A christian , Muslim Hindu, Buddhist, and Atheist may all believe that love is the answer and share that common belief while each following their own path to realizing that love and expressing that love. If we seek the truth in a way in which we will let go of old perceptions as we grow, all true paths will lead to the same place.

Like i’ve said before, a bad person can strive to be better and still continue to be bad - You would seem to dismiss any bad person as wanting to strive at all, which, honestly, is BS. Why don’t bad people strive?

I don’t remember saying bad people don’t strive.
I guess I don’t understand what you mean. IMHO if a bad person is striving to be a better person then he or she must let go of certain things and give up certain activities. If they don’t give up those things then are they really striving. It is a process that continues so a person can be striving and still have issues but eventually you get to a place where you have to overcome a certain weakness in order to progress. You can’t conquer alcoholism by striving but still drinking. You have to stop drinking.

They are, yes. I also believe that if I were in trouble, my family would try to help me - I have faith in them, and trust. And vice-versa, too; I would hope they have faith in me.

Our world is built on our beliefs and perceptions. I no longer seperate religious faith from any other kind. We choose according to what we percieve to be true. All of us do that, not only the religious.

Uh, yes…but they are films, as opposed to real life. Unless, of course, you’re suggesting God makes us relive days over and over again to teach us a lesson - because no, he wouldn’t make such a direct influence on us that proves he exists. In fact, he’s only done such a direct thing once - with Jesus. How about he does it again?

I think of them as a kind of modern day parable. There’s a Buddhist saying about each day being the same day and how we deal with it is the only real difference. If we carry around anger and resentment then that effects our whole world. When we change, our world changes.Ground Hog Day took this literally and did a fabulous job. Bill Murray kept trying to manipulate and control the situation. He finally got happy when he surrendered to the moment.
In defending your life the theme was that the point to mortal life is overcoming fear. A lot of truth in that.

Ok, let me give you an example. Say I fly to Australia, take 1 dollar from a random person’s wallet, and fly back. Show me how this negative “energy” will come back to me, please.

There’s no way for me to do that. I might say that the physical law, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, is a reflection of this spiritual truth. The karmic connection between certain thoughts and deeds isn’t always easy to see but I believe it exists absolutlely.

But surely heaven is a place where we are all good? So what’s the point hanging out there?

Jesus said the kingdom is heaven is within you. Why would you want to hang out there?

I agree with this to some extent, but not all of it. Sometimes your deeds can have a proporionally smaller or larger effect, or even none at all.

I don’t think it’s ever none at all. It’s just none that we see.

Well, that’s the KKK into heaven, then.

No, that’s someone far away from the hub of the wheel. If they continue to remain true to themselves and seek the truth then they have to let go of the negative.
When that inner voice says “This is wrong, this black person is as much a chld of God as I am” then that person may or may not choose to heed that voice. If they choose not to that choice has consequences. When they deny that voice they are no longer being true to themselves but clinging to a lie. Each individual must choose when to let go of their illusions and follow that voice. We don’t always do that within one lifetime.

A good idea. Has no bearing on God’s existence, though.

For me the term God is more of a metaphor for things I have yet to understand. I really have no interest in trying to convince anyone that God is real. Better to concentrate on the things we agree on or just enjoy the exchange of ideas.

Wow, so God’s actively aiding bad people now? What a nice guy.

Huh?? I mean help in the toward the postive sense, not just in the whatever I want sense.
I gotta go to work and will try to finish later

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

It might not. Again, this hinges on the existence of God, which I don’t believe in. Maybe he should come down here and prove it? That’d be nice.

I keep hearing that. If God cares why doesn’t he let us know? If he wants us to believe what doesn’t he do something to prove himself. I don’t have a definitive answer except that us as children of God is a metaphor. It’s unfortunate that many want to remain God’s children rather than become peers. For our own children to become adults we have to let them make choices and face the consequences in order to learn. That kinda how I see it so far.
The other thing is it seems assumed that if God made himself known to us then suddenly we would all behave better. It’s really an unrealistic assumption isn’t it.
“Oh, you mean God is real!!! Woah, I’d better stop doing all this bad shit.”
We were just discussing that belief is not enough. I think the process must take place and it’s up to us to choose.

Nothing is by accident? Ever? There are never any accidents? Seriously?

Is that hard to believe? Things are ultimately cause and effect. I don’t recommend trying to figure out some deeper meaning to every event. You’ll get loopy. I believe what happens, good and bad, is exactly what we need to learn the lesson we need to learn. In Buddhism it is said, This too is for you" meaning every event, is a gift to learn from.

Actually, no. That’s interesting. 'Course, in the big flaming meteor example, we’d have nowhere to reincarnate to, so I guess we all end up somewhere in the end?

Com’on now. Cetainly you don’t think God is limited to one inhabitable planet.

Riiiiight. I’m really looking forward the explanation of this one. Do you mean that, while he was spiritually free, the guards were trapped in their own rigid thinking? While i’m sure his expirience was horrible, how does he know (and what gives him the right) to be able to diagnose the guards in this way? It’s quite possible that some were happy to do what they did. Likewise, many may not have.

The first step to getting out of prison is to realize you are in prison. The men in the concentration camp had to give up every worldly posession and live moment to moment clinging to hope. For them life was boiled down to it’s very essence. They saw that material possessions and social position could be yanked away in an instant.

The guards never realized they were in the prison of their own illusions, and the need to maintain the illusion.

I wouldn’t say more important. Definetly important, though, to our lives, as learning more will help us in the future. Sometimes, though, we cannot learn a lesson from something - and I don’t mean “Ahh, we do not learn the lesson until we have studied ourselves” I mean sometimes there is no lesson to learn. Life is not like a family sitcom.

I guess we just disagree on that. I think there’s something always something to learn. I don’t always see it and life goes on and I don’t worry about it.

There’s no paniced “Oh my God something happened and I can’t figure out the spiritual meaning” If something is bugging me instead of just waiting for it to go away I look inward and try to see what’s going on.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

Um… No I’m not. I used to be but although I revere the teachings of Christ I no longer have enough in common with main stream Chrsitians to want that description. I know many Christians who are really fine people but the specifics of our belierfs are very different. I don’t think any one religion has discovered all the answers. They are all reflections of man’s search for truth. Along that journey we all distort and deny to some extent.

You believe in Christ, and his teachings. Being Christian, in my book, has those two things involved. I agree you and your beliefs are considerably different from more “mainstream” Christianity, but I would say you are still a Christian - just as a Catholic, a Protestant, a Methodist et al are all christians.

It is our internal condition that matters. Killing someone in self defense is not the same as calculated murder. Stealing a loaf of bread to survive is not the same stealing material things for money. The physical is temporary but we live in the moment, and we have choices in this moment. Those choices have consequences for other moments. My body may be temporary but my spirit is not. What do I choose in this moment? Hopefully to be a positive influence on the world around me. We don’t revere the lives of others and our connection to them by casually killing their tempoary physical body.

Interestingly, I agree with this. Why? It makes sense, and it doesn’t require a deity or an afterlife to make sense. The only difference is I feel that my “spiritual self” is as temporary as my body is - but hey, I don’t know that for certain.

I got that. Too me it’s an example that doesn’t say anything. Too many what ifs
I could say that could only happen if it was God’s plan anyway, like the supposed flood for Noah, or, since I believe in reincarnation, we might start over on someother world.

The flood had the added factor of God choosing people to escape, and also animals, because not all people were bad. In the BFM (big flaming meteor) scenario, if God picked a couple of people and two of every animal and plonked them down on some other planet, fine by me - as long as the same conditions are met as last time, which, I seem to recall, were that every other person living was evil.

I can see how it appears that way. Our injustice and lack of benevolance comes from not seeing ourselves as spiritual beings and understanding what that means. It comes from believeing these physical bodies is our prime identity and we are not connected. Once we realize our connection and then strive to understand and live accordingly {as Jesus did} injustice passes away.

I do not believe, nor see myself as a spiritual being. I don’t think i’m perfect, in fact i’m far from that, but I would say that i’m pretty benevolent, and reasonably just. I strive to make myself more so in both ways. But I do not believe I am a spiritual being, just physical.

In Buddhism there’s a comparision to the spokes of a wheel. Spokes can be completely opposite each other but they are connected at the rim and the hub. Even the opposite spokes {paths} are still true.

But the spokes must share some things - they must all be pointing towards the centre, the same length, etc. Otherwise, while all spokes may be decent spokes, overall in the wheel they will be useless.

Through practice we can learn to seperate the voice of our own desires from the true inner voice. First we have to really want to do that

I have a conscience and inner morality. As that is not (in my opinion) the voice of God, does that mean they are just the “voices of my own desires”? Can a person have inner morality seperate from God?

One huge problem is it means being willing to leave certain things behind in order to follow that voice. It isn’t easy. I can look back and see times when I didn’t listen because of what I wanted so I justified and rationalized, only later to admit I didn’t listen. We have to make that a priority over what others want from us. Social pressures. Our own sense of worth and identity. For me it’s discerning love and truth from fear and dishonesty. Then there’s the fine tuning of how best to handle any given situation while maintaining my goals.

Sure. There’s a path of learning and trying to be good, and on the way we may (and probably will) make the wrong decision sometimes. Doesn’t have to have anything to with God, though.

I’d say yes. What I meant was not just belief but someone who is tuned in and following that voice consistantly can’t easily act against their nature. Someone who is only acting nice may reveal their inner selves when confronted with a certain situation. Someone who has become loving and less judgemental will handle a tough situation in a different way. I saw my Dad transformed fairly late in life. He was able to let go of old anger and resentment and become a kinder gentler more patient man. Dickens would have been proud. Even then while on the journey we can have our slip ups It’s still nice to see people change and make progress.

I agree. However, what if that voice itself is flawed? I could be a good, moral person, but strive to be more like my immoral inner voice - and thus I do bad things, in trying (and succeeding) to improve myself. In my example earlier, I pointed out schizophrenics hear voices - by listening to those voices, and strives to follow the wisdom they contain, will that make them better people? How is that different from the inner voice/conscience/morality of me and you?

There’s a huge difference between what we know, what we think may be true, and what we believe is true. Our lives are a mix of these things. As in my wheel example. A guy may grow up in a Muslim household and culture but if his goal is to love and discover the truth then he will be a spoke in the wheel and get to the same hub I get to although our beliefs are far apart at the begining of our journey. The closer we get to the hub the closer our beliefs will be. A christian , Muslim Hindu, Buddhist, and Atheist may all believe that love is the answer and share that common belief while each following their own path to realizing that love and expressing that love. If we seek the truth in a way in which we will let go of old perceptions as we grow, all true paths will lead to the same place.

Ahhh, I think i’m seeing where the problem lies between our understanding. You claim that there are “true” paths. Maybe so. However, you also seem to be claiming that these “true” paths are the only paths on which we are able to strive - that, while there are other paths, people will not strive along them. Of course they will. And these people may be as convinced as you are that their path will eventually lead to being better, and more moral people. So they can about their killing and raping etc, or whatever, constantly striving to do better. While to you and me, their behaviour would be immoral, they would look at us and think the same - and who is to say that, all things considered, our path is the “true” one? Why cannot theirs, however immoral, be?

I don’t remember saying bad people don’t strive.
I guess I don’t understand what you mean. IMHO if a bad person is striving to be a better person then he or she must let go of certain things and give up certain activities. If they don’t give up those things then are they really striving. It is a process that continues so a person can be striving and still have issues but eventually you get to a place where you have to overcome a certain weakness in order to progress. You can’t conquer alcoholism by striving but still drinking. You have to stop drinking.

You are considering striving from only your own perspective. For you, striving means to be more benevolent, to aid people, that all people are equal and must be treated so etc. For others, striving may consist of accruing all the wealth they can, or believing and treating another group as inferior. Both you and they are definite in their belief that they are striving hard to be better people. Why are they wrong, and you not?

Our world is built on our beliefs and perceptions. I no longer seperate religious faith from any other kind. We choose according to what we percieve to be true. All of us do that, not only the religious.

True. I believe there may be deities, however this will have to be proved to me, and I see no evidence which makes me say “Ah! Yes, it is obviously so”. Thus I am agnostic.

I think of them as a kind of modern day parable. There’s a Buddhist saying about each day being the same day and how we deal with it is the only real difference. If we carry around anger and resentment then that effects our whole world. When we change, our world changes.Ground Hog Day took this literally and did a fabulous job. Bill Murray kept trying to manipulate and control the situation. He finally got happy when he surrendered to the moment.
In defending your life the theme was that the point to mortal life is overcoming fear. A lot of truth in that.

I’d agree with that.

There’s no way for me to do that. I might say that the physical law, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, is a reflection of this spiritual truth. The karmic connection between certain thoughts and deeds isn’t always easy to see but I believe it exists absolutlely.

You believe it. You cannot see it always, or test it, or describe it. This is why I do not believe it.

Jesus said the kingdom is heaven is within you. Why would you want to hang out there?

We have to hang around within ourselves? We’re stuck as who we are, and though we may change ourselves, we cannot escape ourselves. You cannot detach, as you put it, your “spiritual” self from your body - while I would see it as more of the “us” part of the body, arising from bilogical process in the brain - from your body. Sometimes we may try - surely that’s the point of suicide.

I don’t think it’s ever none at all. It’s just none that we see.

I require reasonable evidence for me to accept that something exists. I see no such evidence here.

No, that’s someone far away from the hub of the wheel. If they continue to remain true to themselves and seek the truth then they have to let go of the negative.

In your opinion. They may see you as negatively as you see them.

When that inner voice says “This is wrong, this black person is as much a chld of God as I am” then that person may or may not choose to heed that voice. If they choose not to that choice has consequences. When they deny that voice they are no longer being true to themselves but clinging to a lie. Each individual must choose when to let go of their illusions and follow that voice. We don’t always do that within one lifetime.

As i’ve said before, what if that voice is not God? Then it is a part of yourself, and as an individual being, the voices will say completely different things. What makes you think that the voice you, personally, hear, is that of God, while the one that others hear is not?

For me the term God is more of a metaphor for things I have yet to understand. I really have no interest in trying to convince anyone that God is real. Better to concentrate on the things we agree on or just enjoy the exchange of ideas.

Ahh, something I can fully agree on. Believing in God, I think, is generally unimportant - it’s the way we live which is important, and what we should debate on. However, in some cases, it’s important to debate the existence of God - because some people, like yourself, believe God exists and is an important factor of our lives. Thus, it’s as important to discuss his existence as it is to discuss the use of drugs, human rights, laws in our society, etc.

Huh?? I mean help in the toward the postive sense, not just in the whatever I want sense.

Again, schizophrenics may heard voices telling them to act against their wishes - to kill, for example. Should they follow that voice, just because it’s telling them to do something against their wish?

I keep hearing that. If God cares why doesn’t he let us know? If he wants us to believe what doesn’t he do something to prove himself. I don’t have a definitive answer except that us as children of God is a metaphor. It’s unfortunate that many want to remain God’s children rather than become peers. For our own children to become adults we have to let them make choices and face the consequences in order to learn. That kinda how I see it so far.

Interesting belief, and one which, taken alone at least, seems agreeable to me.

The other thing is it seems assumed that if God made himself known to us then suddenly we would all behave better. It’s really an unrealistic assumption isn’t it.
“Oh, you mean God is real!!! Woah, I’d better stop doing all this bad shit.”
We were just discussing that belief is not enough. I think the process must take place and it’s up to us to choose.

Ah, but I don’t believe that at all. If God came down and introduced himself, of course people would still do bad stuff. That’s free will - we would know God exists, and we have the choice to follow him or not. Ultimatly, many people would still choose not to follow him. But at least this way it would be an **informed ** choice.

Is that hard to believe? Things are ultimately cause and effect. I don’t recommend trying to figure out some deeper meaning to every event. You’ll get loopy. I believe what happens, good and bad, is exactly what we need to learn the lesson we need to learn. In Buddhism it is said, This too is for you" meaning every event, is a gift to learn from.

Oh, Ultimately, yes, everything is cause and effect. I was referring to accidents such as falling over, but yes, if you want to look at it in more detail, it is not an accident because you’ve got no tread on your shoe because it’s old, and the pavement is chipped because someone crashed their car on there. I suppose i’ll have to give you that point

Com’on now. Cetainly you don’t think God is limited to one inhabitable planet.

Would God reincarnate, or move us, to another planet? He hasn’t taken any interest in helping us on such a large scale before - excepting for the Jesus situation, and while it would be a benevolent act, from past expirience, i’d say that if God exists it’s not the kind of thing he’d do. If he did, that’d be both benevolent and prove he exists - both of which would be fine by me. I’d probably say thanks.

The first step to getting out of prison is to realize you are in prison. The men in the concentration camp had to give up every worldly posession and live moment to moment clinging to hope. For them life was boiled down to it’s very essence. They saw that material possessions and social position could be yanked away in an instant.

The guards never realized they were in the prison of their own illusions, and the need to maintain the illusion.

You don’t think that working there, and working alongside people who were going to be killed, had their belongings stripped from them, would give the same realization to the guards? Just because it doesn’t happen to you does not mean you will not learn the lesson - if my friend and I smoked, and he got lung cancer, i’d definetly think about quitting, even though it is not me personally that is being affected.

I guess we just disagree on that. I think there’s something always something to learn. I don’t always see it and life goes on and I don’t worry about it.

If you don’t see it always, why is your belief “There is something to it always” and not “Sometimes, we are taught a lesson”? I don’t understand that. It’s like seeing many cars all parked in a line of spaces, with a few spaces free, and saying “oh, no, they’re all parked in, the cars are just invisible”.

There’s no paniced “Oh my God something happened and I can’t figure out the spiritual meaning” If something is bugging me instead of just waiting for it to go away I look inward and try to see what’s going on.

And if you can’t?

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

You believe in Christ, and his teachings. Being Christian, in my book, has those two things involved. I agree you and your beliefs are considerably different from more “mainstream” Christianity, but I would say you are still a Christian - just as a Catholic, a Protestant, a Methodist et al are all christians.

While you can make that assessment most Christians would not think of me as Christian. Mainly, because I don’t believe that belief in the death and resurection of Jesus is nessecary to be saved. I think Jesus was the son of God but no more than Buddha, Mohammed, you and I. I don’t think Jesus was the savior pointed to in the OT. I think that was made up after the fact. I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. A great book IMHO but just a book. Fairly serious differences from Christianity.
Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet but not many would call them Christian. Gandhi was a great admirer of Jesus and his teachings but remained a Hindu by tradition. Honest, lots of people appreciate what Jesus taught without being Christian.

I do not believe, nor see myself as a spiritual being. I don’t think i’m perfect, in fact i’m far from that, but I would say that i’m pretty benevolent, and reasonably just. I strive to make myself more so in both ways. But I do not believe I am a spiritual being, just physical.

You are correct. I see my language was not clear. Many good folks have a sense of honesty, justice and compassion for others without any spiritual belief. As you said, we are not perfect and even the best of us will slip up or has our little foibles. In reincarnation once you reach a certain stage of spiritual growth even those things slip away. There’s a hilarious line in “Defending your Life” when Albert Brooks’ lawyer Rip Torn, says people on earth use between 3% and 5% of their brains.
“Once you use more than 5% , you don’t want to live on earth anymore”

Of course people with no spiritual beliefs can still be committed to being a good, loving and honest person. I agree with you that when it comes to our interaction with others the foundation of our charecter and qualities is not as important as our actions based on those things.

But the spokes must share some things - they must all be pointing towards the centre, the same length, etc. Otherwise, while all spokes may be decent spokes, overall in the wheel they will be useless.

It may not be a perfect example but I think you get my point. Perhaps we just travel around the rim until we decide to turn inward.

I have a conscience and inner morality. As that is not (in my opinion) the voice of God, does that mean they are just the “voices of my own desires”? Can a person have inner morality seperate from God?

God is the well from which all love is drawn. It may be the voice of God that you haven’t acknowledged or it may not. I cannot say. I knew a few Christian kids whose behavior was dictated by their fear of their parents not a dedication to God, even though that’s what they called it. It is up to us as individuals to make those judgement calls. Self Image has a lot to do with it. Sometimes we do “nice” things not out of true benevolence, but in an effort to win and maintain a “nice person” label. That doesn’t make it bad, but it might make it less than sincere. Some people do bad things out of a very low self image and fear and if they can overcome those they can be good people. Each of us must judge for ourselves.

Sure. There’s a path of learning and trying to be good, and on the way we may (and probably will) make the wrong decision sometimes. Doesn’t have to have anything to with God, though.

I understand that these things can be discussed without a connection to God. IMO God is not only the source of all love but the source of all truth too, when we truly seek love and truth we are seeking God even if we call it something else. In my own journey there may come a time when I feel the term God dosn’t really serve anymore and I’ll use some other term. No matter.

I agree. However, what if that voice itself is flawed? I could be a good, moral person, but strive to be more like my immoral inner voice - and thus I do bad things, in trying (and succeeding) to improve myself. In my example earlier, I pointed out schizophrenics hear voices - by listening to those voices, and strives to follow the wisdom they contain, will that make them better people? How is that different from the inner voice/conscience/morality of me and you?

Start with a basic belief that God is about love, truth, compassion, and forgivness.
Then use those foundational beliefs when listening for that inner voice. In the NT some would ask Jesus if he was the son of God or from God and he would say, “Can’t you tell by what’s going on here?” If it’s acts of love and compassion it’s from God. If an inner voice tells me to kick some guy in the nads who s irritating me or to scream “STFU bitch” at some lady I don’t like I can be fairly sure by those standards that it’s not the voice of God.
There’s no standard by which I can be sure that I am always following the voice of God. I’m sure I’m not always or I would be totally Christ like. We learn by doing it and listening for it and having the courage to take a chance even when we’re not quite sure. I can have foundational guidelines. Love and truth being the two main ones. The voice of God is not flawed. My ability to listen is.

Ahhh, I think i’m seeing where the problem lies between our understanding. You claim that there are “true” paths. Maybe so. However, you also seem to be claiming that these “true” paths are the only paths on which we are able to strive - that, while there are other paths, people will not strive along them. Of course they will. And these people may be as convinced as you are that their path will eventually lead to being better, and more moral people. So they can about their killing and raping etc, or whatever, constantly striving to do better. While to you and me, their behaviour would be immoral, they would look at us and think the same - and who is to say that, all things considered, our path is the “true” one? Why cannot theirs, however immoral, be?

Yes, When I used the word strive I assumed a positive emotional and moral purpose. The betterment of myself and all people as well. I see that wasn’t your meaning. When I say true path I mean a similar thing.
A friend said to me once that all choices boil down to a choice between love and power. Sometimes I say love and fear, but I think it’s essentially true.
For whatever easons people may decide to strive for material wealth and a sense of winning over others so they don’t care who gets hurt in the process. Some people just strive for a false sense of security by trying to control others. IMO these things keep us from experienceing true love and deep joy. These activities are part of the wheel just the same. I think these people are choosing power or fear much more often than love. In that sense thier striving for betterment has not yet begun.

You are considering striving from only your own perspective. For you, striving means to be more benevolent, to aid people, that all people are equal and must be treated so etc. For others, striving may consist of accruing all the wealth they can, or believing and treating another group as inferior. Both you and they are definite in their belief that they are striving hard to be better people. Why are they wrong, and you not?

No, I was useing striving in that sense only for the purpose of our conversation. I recognize that someone could strive to be a successful rapist, murderer, world conquerer or whatever. It goes back to what I said about our actions being positive for us and others There is an undeniable truth. Our choices effect each other and have that ripple effect. How do we make choices that will consistantly have a positive effect for myself and others? Asking that question and trying to find the answer is what I consider a true path. That path may be different for different people but the goal is the same. If people are seeking their pwn purpose without regard for others , or worse yet, actively seeking to use, control, and manipulate others, then they are not on that path.

True. I believe there may be deities, however this will have to be proved to me, and I see no evidence which makes me say “Ah! Yes, it is obviously so”. Thus I am agnostic.

I certainly agree that it’s not obvious. I have just chosen to believe and to see what I learn as I continue on. Over time and experience my beliefs have changed.

You believe it. You cannot see it always, or test it, or describe it. This is why I do not believe it.

Have you ever played the game with colored pegs called mastermind? It starts when you make a guess or assumption and then recieve clues about what is true or somewhat true or not true at all, as you try to figure out the puzzle. It’s a good comparison to the spiritual journey. I have assumed a certain principle is true and operate on that assumption, until the evidence indicates that it is not true. So far, it has held up for me.

We have to hang around within ourselves? We’re stuck as who we are, and though we may change ourselves, we cannot escape ourselves. You cannot detach, as you put it, your “spiritual” self from your body - while I would see it as more of the “us” part of the body, arising from bilogical process in the brain - from your body. Sometimes we may try - surely that’s the point of suicide.

My poorly made point was that Heaven is not a geographical place we go to hang out. It is more a state of being. I’ve wondered about that myself. Will it be boring?
I’m willing to worry about later.

I require reasonable evidence for me to accept that something exists. I see no such evidence here.

Certain types of evidence is completely internal and personnal. Someone can share an experience but ultimately only our own experience will change our minds. Kids havbe no real concept of “Burn!!” until they touch something too hot.

In your opinion. They may see you as negatively as you see them.

I suppose, but humans do have certain concepts they hold in common and ideas of what is good, that vastly different people and cultures agree on.

As i’ve said before, what if that voice is not God? Then it is a part of yourself, and as an individual being, the voices will say completely different things. What makes you think that the voice you, personally, hear, is that of God, while the one that others hear is not?

Once again, the foundation of love and truth. When I look at various religions I see common themes and principles which IMO reflect the essential truths behind mans search for meaning and a higher purpose. These principles are also reflected in certain philosophies. It is up to me to judge my own internal voice not someone elses. With others I tend to look at their actions and their overall manner. I try to maintain a healthy respect for each person’s individual journey and right to choose for themselves.

Ahh, something I can fully agree on. Believing in God, I think, is generally unimportant - it’s the way we live which is important, and what we should debate on. However, in some cases, it’s important to debate the existence of God - because some people, like yourself, believe God exists and is an important factor of our lives. Thus, it’s as important to discuss his existence as it is to discuss the use of drugs, human rights, laws in our society, etc.

I agree. Belief is important to the individual and probably to the group he or she chooses to worship with. When dealing with people I tend to look at charecter and not spiritual belief. Hopefully honesty and compassion are the same for believers and non believers. In some cases, like abortion and gay rights, people’s religious beliefs are overlapping into the lives of others so then it’s fair game.

Again, schizophrenics may heard voices telling them to act against their wishes - to kill, for example. Should they follow that voice, just because it’s telling them to do something against their wish?

Of course not. I hope I’ve made it clear that it’s not just any inner voice. There are guidelines for discernment.

Oh, Ultimately, yes, everything is cause and effect. I was referring to accidents such as falling over, but yes, if you want to look at it in more detail, it is not an accident because you’ve got no tread on your shoe because it’s old, and the pavement is chipped because someone crashed their car on there. I suppose i’ll have to give you that point

Dance of Joy!! OOpps I slipped

Would God reincarnate, or move us, to another planet? He hasn’t taken any interest in helping us on such a large scale before - excepting for the Jesus situation, and while it would be a benevolent act, from past expirience, i’d say that if God exists it’s not the kind of thing he’d do. If he did, that’d be both benevolent and prove he exists - both of which would be fine by me. I’d probably say thanks.

Perhaps we are already moving to other planets and don’t know it. Perhaps there are multilayered dimensions existing in the same time and space. Doesn’t string theory say something about that? The possibilities are wide open.
I tend to look at this life as a certain class and when you graduate to another level you go someplace else. Even the Bible talks about this a little. Jesus says to the theif on the cross. “Today you will be with me in paradise” several days later he says to Mary, “Don’t touch me, I have not yet ascended to the Father”
There’s also a passage about the third heaven and about different glories. The latter day saints believe in different levels after this life where we continue to learn.

You don’t think that working there, and working alongside people who were going to be killed, had their belongings stripped from them, would give the same realization to the guards? Just because it doesn’t happen to you does not mean you will not learn the lesson - if my friend and I smoked, and he got lung cancer, i’d definetly think about quitting, even though it is not me personally that is being affected.

Sure a guard might have compassion for the suffering of others and just choose to what “do his job” “Look out for number 1” It’s not the same as being a prisinor, nor is it an absolute example. Guards who really felt they were the master race and the jews were only getting what they deserved, were imprisioned by their own ideas.

The quakers have a neat concept

An individuals dignity cannot be injured by the actions of any other person, but only by the actions of that person. {paraphrased}

They pray for those who hurt them because they believe evil actions injure the person who comitts them more.

If you don’t see it always, why is your belief “There is something to it always” and not “Sometimes, we are taught a lesson”? I don’t understand that. It’s like seeing many cars all parked in a line of spaces, with a few spaces free, and saying “oh, no, they’re all parked in, the cars are just invisible”.

When I’m sitting still I’m not feeling the effects of gravity much but I’m confident it’'s there.

I believe the cause and effect physical law that we agreed on has a spiritual law that is similar. Just as we don’t always see the cause and effect in the physical world and use the term accident, that same scenario has a parallel in the spiritual world. IMHO of course. In the same way I don’t panic and stress over, why did I fall down physically, I trust that whatever lesson is out there for me will make itself clear in time.
It’s really just an extention of this. If I drink to much it will have a negative effect on my physical well being and my job and my friendships. Part of me might know that but because I’m not ready to give it up I deny that knowledge and continue with negative behavior until some consequence of my choices make me stop denying and face the truth. My state of mind has to change amd I have to stop denying the truth and change my behavior. I believe this same principle applies to all areas of our lives. All things refelct something of our choices and our internal make up, conscious and subconscious. In some eastern religions the goal is to make our subconscious choices conscious ones so that we are freed from the need to choose them.

And if you can’t?

It is my belief that eventually I must and will. The more we put this into practice the more efficiently we can undertstand ourselves and improve our choices.

Whew!! Our posts have gone from large to gigantic epics. I have enjoyed our exchange and thank you for your time and input, but I suggest we try to really limit ourselves or just call it a day. Other wise I probably won’t have time to respond to everything. What sayest thou?

[Revenant_Threshold]

Sounds good to me - I was having similar thoughts, I have to admit! Nice debating with you

[cosmosdan]

Until next time…a tip of the hat and thanks again.