# Dylan was so mean to Donovan in that movie **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 9, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829 "2006-10-09T18:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/1 "2006-10-09T18:49:37Z")
In the Jill Sobule song [“Heroes”](http://www.jillsobule.com/heroes.html) she laments, “Why are all our heroes so imperfect?” She then proceeds to list several examples of the many failings of those we hold up as our heroes. One such example is > [@](#): > > Dylan was so mean to Donovan in that movie What movie is she talking about, and what are the circumstances in which Dylan is mean to Donovan? ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/2 "2006-10-09T18:55:28Z")
This might be a reference to Bob Dylan’s movie _Don’t Look Back_, which included an appearance by Donovan (a singer who was popular in the sixties and seventies). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/3 "2006-10-09T18:57:31Z")
From the Wiki article on Donovan: > [@](#): > > Donovan’s early musical style and appearance led to him being perceived and promoted as a British version of Bob Dylan; this brought with it a certain degree of criticism from folk purists, some of whom assumed him to be merely a Dylan imitator. Not surprisingly, the meeting between the two musicians in April 1965 made headlines. Dylan was unimpressed by the young musician, as can be seen in D.A. Pennebaker’s film of Dylan’s '65 UK tour, Dont Look Back (which was released in 1967). Dylan mocks Donovan throughout the film and patronizes him after the two perform songs at a hotel party. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/4 "2006-10-09T19:01:52Z")
Probably the 1967 documentary of his 1965 English tour, [Don’t Look Back](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061589/). > [@](#): > > One might also argue that Dylan’s obvious apprehension to Donovan was due to a mix of jealousy and disgust, ultimately because Donovan was really just another Dylan. Had Dylan truly cared about the message rather than the medium, he’d be content with Donovan’s solidarity to help get that message to the people. Instead, Dylan saw Donovan as an artistic competitor and hated that many compared the two. Many Brits at the time even gave Donovan more credit as a guitarist, a title that was destroyed after Dylan turned to electric rock and developed his style as an improv guitarist. He even takes a shot at Donovan on stage during a song (“I looked in the closet/there was Donovan”). It was likely a reference to Donovan’s attempt to emulate Dylan’s musical style, though it may even be a jab at Donovan’s masculinity – or lack thereof. The IMDB poster is correct in that Dylan comes across mostly as an ass throughout the tour. In his favor, and in hindsight, Dylan was among the first to get the full-face media treatment that stars have now had decades to become accustomed to. He hated every minute of it, for very good reasons - the media was even more of an ass than he was. I think you have to read his autobiography, _Chronicles_, to fully understand the weight of scrutiny he felt he needed to crawl out from in order to have a human existence again. But he handled himself badly and was cruel to virtually everyone. Even Joan Baez couldn’t ever really forgive him, if you believe her devastating song, “Diamonds and Rust.” Dylan has spent the last four decades of his life determined to tell all who wish to worship him that he is no hero. He was correct to do so as a human being, although I think the world lost some porducts of his genius at that price. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/5 "2006-10-11T14:39:18Z")
New York rock DJ Vin Scelsa has said he was with Bob Dylan when Bruce Sprinsteen appeared on the cover of "Time " and “Newsweek” the same week in 1975. It was a rare thing for a “rock and roller” to appear on even one of these magazines, let alone both at the same time, and especially for a relative unknown with two mediocre selling albums at the time. Dylan was constantly asking people “just how good is this Springsteen fellow”, in Scelsa’s opinion like an aging Old West gunfighter asking about the newest hot gun. Scelsa’s take on the “Don’t Look Back” movie is Dylan showed this same mix of fear and eagarness about Donova. When he meets him and Donovan plays his leightweight folk song, Dylan smiles “This kid is nothing”. Scelsa has said he has met Dylan only a coupleof times and laughingly specualtes he is a space alien visiting earth from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/6 "2006-10-11T14:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=Jim’s Son] New York rock DJ Vin Scelsa has said… . [/QUOTE] Cite? (I’d love to read the article.) ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/7 "2006-10-11T15:37:46Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Cite? (I’d love to read the article.) [/QUOTE] I don’t know if Scelsa’s ever written anything. He still has a Saturday night radio show “Idiot’s Delight” on WFUV 90.7 in NYC and on the station’s website. He has told these anecdotes several times over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/8 "2006-10-11T18:30:18Z")
Dylan was extremely ambitious, a quality many of his admirers seem to overlook, so there probably was some competitiveness in his feelings toward Donovan. However, I think Vin Scelsa had it right: Donovan was a lightweight next to Dylan, and Dylan knew it. In **Don’t Look Back** , after Donovan plays whatever twee little thing he plays, Dylan takes the guitar and proceeds to sing a version of “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue” that ruthlessly puts Donovan back in his place. Interestingly, in a recent Dylan-centric issue of Mojo (yeah, I read it sometimes, leave me alone), Donovan disputed that interpretation, saying that if you pay careful attention to the scene in **Don’t Look Back** you’ll see that Dylan is actually being respectful and treating him like an artistic equal. That’s not my memory of it, to put it mildly, but assuming Donovan is being honest he felt no slight in Dylan’s treatment of him. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/9 "2006-10-11T18:36:42Z")
[QUOTE=Nonsuch] Interestingly, in a recent Dylan-centric issue of Mojo (yeah, I read it sometimes, leave me alone), Donovan disputed that interpretation, saying that if you pay careful attention to the scene in **Don’t Look Back** you’ll see that Dylan is actually being respectful and treating him like an artistic equal. That’s not my memory of it, to put it mildly, but assuming Donovan is being honest he felt no slight in Dylan’s treatment of him. [/QUOTE] I have not seen Don’t Look Back so can’t speak to the scene, but have heard Donovan interviewed a few times recently - the one I remember most is Fresh Air on NPR. He is definitely interested in massaging his image - putting his innovations on a par with the Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, etc. So him framing his encounter with Dylan that way is not surprising at all. Donovan is an articulate guy who had some poppy folk psychedelic tunes and happened to be in an interesting place at an interesting time. I haven’t heard any of his music that would change that view - I am open to hearing about it, but haven’t heard it myself… That doesn’t mean Dylan should’ve dismissed him, if Zimmy in fact did so - but that is more a question of manners… ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/10 "2006-10-11T19:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] I have not seen Don’t Look Back so can’t speak to the scene, but have heard Donovan interviewed a few times recently - the one I remember most is Fresh Air on NPR. He is definitely interested in massaging his image - putting his innovations on a par with the Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, etc. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I read an interview with him about a year ago in _Goldmine_ where he seemed to feel that the major figures in 20th century music were the Beatles, Dylan, and Donovan, not necessarily in that order. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylan-was-so-mean-to-donovan-in-that-movie/375829/11 "2006-10-12T05:35:50Z")
[QUOTE=Nonsuch] Dylan was extremely ambitious, a quality many of his admirers seem to overlook, so there probably was some competitiveness in his feelings toward Donovan. However, I think Vin Scelsa had it right: Donovan was a lightweight next to Dylan, and Dylan knew it. In **Don’t Look Back** , after Donovan plays whatever twee little thing he plays, Dylan takes the guitar and proceeds to sing a version of “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue” that ruthlessly puts Donovan back in his place. Interestingly, in a recent Dylan-centric issue of Mojo (yeah, I read it sometimes, leave me alone), Donovan disputed that interpretation, saying that if you pay careful attention to the scene in **Don’t Look Back** you’ll see that Dylan is actually being respectful and treating him like an artistic equal. That’s not my memory of it, to put it mildly, but assuming Donovan is being honest he felt no slight in Dylan’s treatment of him. [/QUOTE] We all saw the same thing, we just saw it from a different point of view. Tangled up in blue. Dylan could be extremely ruthless and competitive. He threw Phil Ochs out of a car when Ochs said he liked but did not love “can you please crawl out your window”. I don’t think there has ever been any real collaboration between the two of them on stage or anything. My brother saw Donovan open for Yes in the early 1970s when his popularity had faded and theirs exploded (Fragile, Close to the Edge). He strummed his songs for 30 minutes to massive indifference and left saying “I’ll leave you to your heroes now”.