# Dylann Roof is a Terrorist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074 "2015-06-21T14:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/81 "2015-06-21T20:41:21Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The acts of a delusional psychotic are hardly designed to intimidate or coerce, they are designed to satisfy his doctrine of hate. Calling him a terrorist is so “Fox news.” Emphasis added. At this point, I think it’s safe to conclude that further discussion with you is useless. Believe what you like. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/82 "2015-06-21T20:43:32Z")
I was thinking pretty much the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/83 "2015-06-21T20:45:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The acts of a delusional psychotic are hardly designed to intimidate or coerce, they are designed to satisfy his doctrine of hate. Calling him a terrorist is so “Fox news.” The fuck are you talking about? Someone who’s a delusional psychotic can still have designs. They can still make plans. The fact that their plans are delusional does not mean they’re not plans. And the idea that he wasn’t trying to intimidate the civilian population is itself completely absurd. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/84 "2015-06-21T20:49:42Z")
He’s not a terrorist. He’s just a very naughty boy! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/85 "2015-06-21T21:05:51Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Non-Muslims generally need to use bombs to be called terrorists (e.g. McVeigh, Breivik). Muslim acts may be called terrorism if they use a gun (e.g. Ford Hood). I can’t remember how the media reacted to the Washington sniper. Black American guy, no bombs, Nation of Islam isn’t exactly like Middle East Islam, but he changed his name to Muhammad. I think a decent amount of people consider him a terrorist now, but I’m not sure. > [@Odesio](#): > > [Former] Major Nidal Malik Hasan of the US Army murdered 13 people and injured 30 more at Ft. Hood back in 2009. Despite there being some good evidence suggesting that it was terrorism, he was Muslim, and non-white he was never charged with anything related to terrorism nor was his crime classified as such. So I’m not sure it’s always about whether or not the attacker is white. IIRC there was some loud disagreement about this. Since the feds classified it as something like workplace violence instead of terrorism, the victims or their families didn’t qualify for…something. I believe someone, congress or the relevant executive body, made a change to allow the benefits or recognition or whatever it was. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/86 "2015-06-21T21:20:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He’s a racist, he’s a terrorist, he’s a troubled young man. And his mama cries… (Seriously, I’m sure Roof’s mother is quite upset) ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aeb1de/32.png) [@Lee\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/87 "2015-06-21T21:25:36Z")
FWIW, I’m on the Bernie Sanders mailing list and he sent out an email with no minced words, directly calling the guy a terrorist very early on when the story broke. He also provided a link to the official donation page for the church (no request for donation to his own campaign or anything like that). I’ll admit I was impressed by the tone of the email, which pretty much echoed my own sentiments and skipped the usual couching of these things in benign “it’s such a terrible tragedy” generic terms as we see and hear so often from politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aeb1de/32.png) [@Lee\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/88 "2015-06-21T21:27:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He’s not a terrorist. He’s just a very naughty boy! I read somewhere he was being characterized as a “smart boy who just got caught up in the internet”. A _smart boy_. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/89 "2015-06-21T21:28:24Z")
Technically, killing someone until they’re dead doesn’t qualify as “intimidation or coercion”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/90 "2015-06-21T21:29:19Z")
> [@Lee\_Q](#): > > I read somewhere he was being characterized as a “smart boy who just got caught up in the internet”. > > A _smart boy_. > > :mad: Ted Kaczynski was a “smart boy”. Not saying Roof is, but you can be smart and be a fuck-ed up terrorist, too. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aeb1de/32.png) [@Lee\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/91 "2015-06-21T21:31:03Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The acts of a delusional psychotic are hardly designed to intimidate or coerce, they are designed to satisfy his doctrine of hate. Calling him a terrorist is so “Fox news.” I don’t personally care whether someone thinks it’s “Fox news.” When murderous actions are carried out with the express purpose of terrorizing an entire group of people and inciting widescale violence, I’m going to call it terrorism. If you want to see something that’s “so Fox news” I suggest turning on actual Fox news, where last I saw they were scratching their simple little heads trying to figure out what got into this poor child, perhaps it was the rampant anti-Christianism that drove him to madness. THAT, my friend, is so Fox news. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/92 "2015-06-21T21:31:56Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Technically, killing someone until they’re dead doesn’t qualify as “intimidation or coercion”. But the point, at least as this legal definition is concerned, is whether the attack and its broader circumstances was meant to intimidate or coerce others. And I don’t think we know for sure. You can imagine evidence, like him saying “I’m going to let you live so you tell of what happened here.” In the lynching context, the evidence of intimidation or coercion was both the explicit or implied justification that what caused the attack was breaking the social order (chatting up a white girl, say) and the methods (often hanging a man where people would see him in his own neighborhood). ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aeb1de/32.png) [@Lee\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/93 "2015-06-21T21:32:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ted Kaczynski was a “smart boy”. Not saying Roof is, but you can be smart and be a fuck-ed up terrorist, too. No doubt about it. They weren’t pointing out that dichotomy, though, so much as tsking about what a shame it was that the poor boy was led astray by the evil internet. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/94 "2015-06-21T21:38:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As noted, it meets the legal definition. But I don’t know how you get from that the idea that I want to call all major crimes an act of terrorism. I don’t think the shooter at Sandy Hook, who killed many more people, was a terrorist. > > As noted in my conversation w/ Richard Parker, I do NOT like the kind of reaction the US has had to terrorism. But… since there is NO WAY we are going to stop calling muslim terror acts “terrorism”, we should be consistent and show the world that we don’t think terrorism is reserved for violence committed by muslims. I acknowledge your point, which is that unlike the Sandy Hook shooter, this guy clearly had an agenda. Where we differ is in where I think we should set the bar for “terrorism”. I would ask the question this way: is there any hate crime, then, that by your definition should _not_ be called an act of terrorism? Perhaps there are a few, but most would probably qualify, and that goes back a long, long way in history. Shaun King, in a recent opinion piece, asked the intriguing question, “Could it be that America, with its deeply troubling racist past, is refusing to call Dylann Roof a terrorist because it would then mean that so many other people in our history who inflicted such pain would also have to fit the bill?” You may see virtue in “show[ing] the world that we don’t think terrorism is reserved for violence committed by muslims” but be careful what you wish for. You may also end up showing the world that, by your definition, the US has been infested with domestic terrorism for centuries, and that it persists today, not just in hate crimes, but in violence perpetrated by pro-lifers and other political activists. Is that a useful characterization? Indeed one could argue terrorism could probably be found in most mass shootings. Unless the shooter was so completely loopy that there was no discernible motive at all, any mass shooting is typically the result of a grudge against something or somebody. Terrorism is apparently all around us. But is that what you really believe? There’s a true slippery slope here. Just where do you draw the line? Personally, I’d prefer to use the term “terrorism” carefully and judiciously, set the bar really high, and use it as a justification for preventing another 9/11. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > He’s not a terrorist. He’s just a very naughty boy! Seems like a telling comment – if you’re using the term “terrorist” to mean someone who committed a very serious crime and deserves the maximum punishment, then you’re not using the term in its intended meaning and purpose. “Hate crime that resulted in nine fatalities” serves that meaning just fine. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/95 "2015-06-21T21:45:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I would ask the question this way: is there any hate crime, then, that by your definition should _not_ be called an act of terrorism? Of course. If I beat up the white lady that lives on my block and call her a white devil honkey who is stealing all the black men, I’d expect my action to get labeled a “hate crime.” But it’s very likely only a few people would hear about it. It probably wouldn’t even make the six o’clock news. How does one inflict terror on the population, incite more violence (e.g., a race war), or coerce government response if no one knows what they did? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/96 "2015-06-21T21:47:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Okay, he did not; (Pause for reinsertion of two crucial but conveniently omitted words) > [@](#): > > Appear intended > [@](#): > > (i) to _intimidate or coerce a civilian population_; > > he did not; > (ii) to _influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;_ or > > (nor) did he; > (iii) to _affect the conduct of a government_ by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; Given the intent to 1)kill blacks motivated by the belief that they don’t belong here (and thus should be frightened or forced to flee) and 2)cause a race war (massively perturbing the incumbent policy and conduct of the US government), it is clear that he ticked off the trifecta (though, as noted earlier, only one of these is required). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/97 "2015-06-21T21:47:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But unless the word “terrorism” is just a kind of casual descriptor of something one regards as especially heinous, the operative question is why it matters what we call these things. Yeah, I’m not sure what the point is beyond calling it double plus ungood. I don’t think people want to send him to Gitmo for some water boarding or to play hide the glow stick. Like everything else it’s broken along lib/con lines, with libs being rather insistent on the point. Maybe because of these tribalistic reasons: 1. Resentment over right wing militias never being taken seriously by authorities while they themselves were called weak on terror; it’s a perceived way to reverse the narrative. 2. To poke cons in the eye over “one of their own” (as perceived by the left). 3. Behghazi revenge. Why won’t you call it terrorism, huh, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/98 "2015-06-21T21:47:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My problem with the “eh, it isn’t terrorism” position is that it begs the question of what terrorism is. If we can’t call something that is clearly terroristic (it’s politically-motivated, the shooter is motivated by a ideology, the shooter’s manifesto encourages others to take up the cause, people are now terrified), then we should just not use the word anymore for _anything_. > > If you’ve got a gun, you don’t need an organization’s endorsement or sponsorship. Anyone with an internet connection can find like-minded individuals who are more than willing to provide emotional support to a lone wolf. Requiring a quorum of co-conspirators before deciding an act is terroristic is crazy. I agree with this. One real problem with the ‘lone wolf/delusional nut’ reading of this shooter’s actions is that it _ignores_ the support the shooter received for committing his act and the elements of that support that _enabled_ the act. This support comprises both the physical means to commit the act (easy access to weaponry) and the emotional/ideological aid and encouragement the shooter found in his personal contacts (whether in-person or online). We are too quick to tolerate this network of support for violent actions against a particular demographic group (essentially, non-white, non-Christian people). But it’s worth asking if we would be quite so tolerant, if the demographic group targeted by the (non-centralized, non-directed) culture that produced the shooter were not black people, but, say, governors of US states, or US Senators, or CEOs. One can’t help suspecting that our institutions of surveillance take a far greater interest in online groups celebrating and normalizing violent intentions against those groups, than they take in online groups celebrating and normalizing violent intentions against black people. … No, I’m _not_ calling for additional surveillance of the US civilian population. (Though maybe such surveillance as there is could be distributed a bit more evenly.) Ignoring the culture that produced this shooter, or excusing it on the basis of it being ‘just the way things are in that part of the country,’ is an unhelpful approach. Calling him a terrorist might bring some needed attention to that unfortunate status quo. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/99 "2015-06-21T21:50:20Z")
**wolfpup** : I think the important aspects of this is that DR apparently: 1. Planned this well in advance 2. Had a political ideology that he was trying to advance 3. Killed (or tried to kill) a large group of people. If he and his buddies were out drinking, and then beat up, and killed, a black guy 'just because he was black", I wouldn’t necessarily call that terrorism. Especially it wasn’t planned in advance or wasn’t part of some overall plan the guys had intimidate black people. Now, the premeditated part isn’t part of the legal definition, but I think it should be. Loner types who plant bombs at their High School to show everyone how important they really are might kill a bunch of people, but I wouldn’t call them terrorists. I’d classify all the KKK stuff as terrorism. No question about that. I’d call the Unibomber a terrorist, too, given the fact that we ARE going to using that term for some folks. But just to be clear, I’d be happy to get rid of the term altogether in the US. Same with “hate crime”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/100 "2015-06-21T21:58:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Of course. If I beat up the white lady that lives on my block and call her a white devil honkey who is stealing all the black men, I’d expect my action to get labeled a “hate crime.” > > But it’s very likely only a few people would hear about it. It probably wouldn’t even make the six o’clock news. How does one inflict terror on the population, incite more violence (e.g., a race war), or coerce government response if no one knows what they did? Quite true. But what if you were so pissed off that you shot the white devil honkey, and for good measure, a few of her honkey friends who happened to be standing around? Is that now “an act of terrorism”? Is that what terrorism means now – “a motivated crime serious enough that it makes the national news”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074.md?page=6)